Solutions for shortened events

Dogpatch · Post by **Dogpatch** » Sun Sep 10, 2006 8:41 pm

Everyone had a chance to voice their feelings about the shortened Jefferson event. Now lets look at and discuss possible solutions.

I will admit that the possibility of not being able to get two run groups in existed at Jefferson, but we gave away 1 1/2 hours of track time for nothing. I therefore suggest that we could plan ahead for such occurences. When there is not time to run two groups but plenty of time to run one group I say go for it. All you have to do is alternate groups with each occurrence. Do Group One the first time and than the next time do Group Two. So that two driver cars don't get screwed you let all cars in that Group run. That would entail some how stopping to let the first driver return to the start so that the second driver could saddle up to run. It may be a little awkward but would work. At least half the cars would get more time on the track/hill.

I really don't want to hear how it won't work but rather would appreciate how to make it work properly.

Also as one of the drivers that didn't run Sat at Jefferson it never occured to me that I could have volunteered to relieve one of the regular workers or worked another station. I wasn't running anyway and it probably would have helped. Something to keep in mind for the future.

Got ideas? Let's talk.

See everyone at Weatherly.

Kurt
Prince PR01 DSR #08

Matt Green · Post by **Matt Green** » Mon Sep 11, 2006 3:51 pm

If done, it would have to be on a strictly volunteer basis. This is due to the fact that in our rules it says that all drivers must be given the opportunity for the same number of unobstructed runs.

That being said, I personally believe that we had enough people that were already packed up at Jefferson to make a huge difference in the possibility of success of another attempt at runs. This could've been gleaned at a drivers meeting possibly, which negates my earlier comment about the a drivers meeting being irrelevant. It also is a possibility that the time taken to gather drivers for a meeting would've hampered the success of another run. With that in mind, would you suggest that drivers need to be present at a certain location at the conclusion of each set of runs on a Sunday after lunch (or after a certain time?)? I'm not sure this would be feasible, but I'm just throwing it out there in the hopes of positive suggestions...

jgrausa · Post by **jgrausa** » Mon Sep 11, 2006 5:15 pm

Everyone had a chance to voice their feelings about the shortened Jefferson event. Now lets look at and discuss possible solutions.

........ I therefore suggest that we could plan ahead for such occurences.

Kurt:
I like the idea of planning ahead for simialr circumstances (how to best utilize track time).
I also think it is very important to identify the root cause of Sunday's time constraints. Sunday had no untimed sessions or extended drivers meeting or Novice instructional meeting. Items that normally can reduce timed sessions. We seemed to get started on time (9am ish). What was it specifically that made Sundays sessions take longer than normal? I'd like to hear from organizers/workers as they have a perspective different from the driver's.
Regards,
Joe Rausa
#23

McDallion · Post by **McDallion** » Mon Sep 11, 2006 8:44 pm

I think when we broke for lunch and the end of group 1 Sunday, many driverslost track of the rotation and thought we were starting with group 1 after lunch. There didn't seem to many group 2 cars responding after lunch. It didn't seem as if Dan was expecting many. I didn't hear a lot of groups being called during the weekend. At a hill we have the groups coming down as a reminder of where we are in the rotation.
Don

Nelson · Post by **Nelson** » Mon Sep 11, 2006 9:28 pm

On Sunday morning, if my memory serves, we started the first car about 9:10. Right around 10:00 we had a fluid drop, 30 to 45 minutes to clean up. As I remember the fluid trail went from turn 1 to past turn 3. Also, 2 cars to be flat towed in.

Dogpatch · Post by **Dogpatch** » Mon Sep 11, 2006 11:08 pm

Equal runs rule make sense to me too. But I believe most competitors would give up their chance to run so someone else could if it was an alternating circumstance. (Group I runs this event, Group II runs the next, than Group I and so on). When a situation arises that shortens an event a drivers meeting should be called to implement this procedure. I don't think it would come up very often (maybe once every year or so).

Nelson was right about the incidents that occured and actually there were a few more. Plus we had several catchups (every time the Yellow Audi ran...have ban that car...too fast).

I'm sitting here thinking of ways to get more track time, make things run smoother and be a more enjoyable event...important yes but not most important.

There are three players at each event. All are important. The workers, the drivers, and the organizer.

The Driver: this is the most important of the three. He is the reason the event is put on. Its his money that foots the bill. The driver is there to participate in the event, officiating or working is not part of his/hers responsibility. If the driver wishes to pitch in where he can thats fine but don't count on the driver to work.

The Worker: the worker should be there to enjoy the event by working. Sounds silly but there is a whole group of people that really do enjoy working at events. A job well done, the commardairie, the food, the cars competing and the festive nature of the event is why they come out. They should be renumerated for their service with but not limited to: pay, expenses, lodging and any other perks that make sense and that the organizer and sponsoring club decides is apropraite.

The Organizer/Sponsoring Club: Since this is where the money goes it is their responsibilty to put on a proper event for the Drivers. Its their responsibility to provide an adequate group of qualified workers.

Everyone has opportunities to pitch in when help is needed but we have to remember what the role of the Players are. Drivers drive, workers work, and organizers organize.

Kurt

Prince PR01 DSR #08

JekylandHyde · Post by **JekylandHyde** » Tue Sep 12, 2006 6:35 am

Dogpatch wrote: I'm sitting here thinking of ways to get more track time, make things run smoother and be a more enjoyable event ...

Hey Kurt, what about how some autocrosss events do it?
If there is time enough to run some more cars, but not enough time to run everybody ... $5 fun runs

Get in line and take another run for $5 as a non-competition run.
You get a time, but it does not go into the books for cmopetition sake.

dspgti · Post by **dspgti** » Tue Sep 12, 2006 7:29 am

I think we did the $5 a lap thing several years ago when we only had 35 entries.

What happened to the color coding thing that the Knorr's came up with? That worked real well in the spring. Also helped keep the groups together. The color sequence was a little hard to remember. Maybe stickers with 1A, 1B,1C and 2A,2B,2C. Can't get confused with that? It would be likely that 2 driver cars would be the same subgroup giving plenty of time for change over.

See other posting on worker issues and put in your 2 cents.

Dave Y.

Steve Tumolo · Post by **Steve Tumolo** » Tue Sep 12, 2006 8:41 am

Hey Kurt,

It seems to me that you are very vocal about your opinions and that is great!! Have you attended any club meetings to voice them with officials/organizers? My suggestion to you is that maybe you should think about attending a meeting to see all that goes on behind the scenes. Things are not as easy as listing some things on the forum and expect something to happen. Get involved. Maybe the club needs someone like you to throw out fresh ideas on how to make events smoother.

Matt Green · Post by **Matt Green** » Tue Sep 12, 2006 10:31 am

Dogpatch wrote: Drivers drive, workers work, and organizers organize.

The only issue with that is that we have a lot of overlap, sometimes even within events. Most of our core worker and officials are former drivers. There are very few people who work all or most of the events who don't try to get some time in a car here and there.

That said, I do agree that having drivers work *at* the event would be cumbersome. This does not preclude people from helping at setup days and such though, which is often when help is most sorely needed.

I guess I'm looking at it from personal experience. I had NO idea what actually went into keeping an event running successfully until I worked in some of the key roles. I know at this point that I do quite a bit, but it's still NOWHERE near as much as many do to keep the events going.

We need to keep discussing new ideas, and we need people to support them too. If you (meaning anyone in particular) are too busy, then perhaps you might know someone who would be willing to help.

Sorry for the thread hijack, and now lets get back to the original stuff---

jgrausa · Post by **jgrausa** » Tue Sep 12, 2006 5:29 pm

On Sunday morning, if my memory serves, we started the first car about 9:10. Right around 10:00 we had a fluid drop, 30 to 45 minutes to clean up.

The start time was good and certanly it is controllable. It is difficult to control the time lost to a spill cleanup - we are at the mercy of the Summit Point crews. I guess they share clean-up equipment between the three tracks - is that correct?

We may be able to control the length of the lunch break. If we are slowed down in morning sessions, is it possible to serve lunch to the workers at their stations (like the hillclimbs)? I believe most drivers are flexible about their lunch schedule.

about how some autocrosss events do it?
If there is time enough to run some more cars, but not enough time to run everybody ... $5 fun runs

Great idea!! If this is a viable alternative to shuting down 1 1/2 hrs early, I'd pony up some extra $ for an another session - unofficial times of course.

Plus we had several catchups (every time the Yellow Audi ran...have ban that car...too fast).What happened to the color coding thing that the Knorr's came up with? That worked real well in the spring. Also helped keep the groups together.

BINGO!! If I had to single out one re-occuring circumstance that slowed down timed runs, it would have been catch-ups. This is an area that has been controlled effectively before. One driver told me that on each of his three sessions, he was held up waiting for release, because of a catch-up on the track. Bob Gardner caught up to a FF, was given more time, and proceeded to blow through two checkered flags. There was a 19 second disparity in lap times between Gardner and the FF he was behind. On my last session, by the time I reached T1 after release, I saw Peter Stillwell entering the carousel, I immediately lifted and slowly drove through the esses and carousel so as not to run up his tail on the straight.

Nelson may have some data on catch-ups. I don't know how he monitors correct timed laps vs. catchups (maybe the delete button is in play).

Could cars be grouped for release by their historical lap times? Novices would group with their Class on Saturday(assuming most of ther class were close in times). Then Sunday their Saturday times would group them.
Group 1 - 65 sec +
Group 2 - 55-65 secs
Group 3 - less than 55 secs

Food for thought.
Regards,
Joe Rausa
#23

RX-Midget · Post by **RX-Midget** » Tue Sep 12, 2006 5:59 pm

jgrausa wrote:
Could cars be grouped for release by their historical lap times? Novices would group with their Class on Saturday(assuming most of ther class were close in times). Then Sunday their Saturday times would group them.
Group 1 - 65 sec +
Group 2 - 55-65 secs
Group 3 - less than 55 secs

Food for thought.
Regards,
Joe Rausa
#23

At Spring Jefferson, I belive that T. Knorr came up with the idea like this where we all had different color dots that broke the cars into groups based on lap times and we would line up in order. This seemed to work well.

Matt Green · Post by **Matt Green** » Tue Sep 12, 2006 8:10 pm

Yes, it was Tom and Garth, and I can tell you from working pit out that it worked really well. I'm not sure why that system wasn't implemented at this event, but it probably had to do with no one taking the initiative to step up and coordinate it. Granted, that system doesn't solve all the issues with catch ups, but it was worth the time and was a big help to me.

As far as someone keeping data on catch-ups- I'm not sure if the current timing system still uses the old continuous readout display, but only the valid times are kept. This is one reason why Nelson has such a heck of a job at Jefferson (I don't remember anyone else doing timing there) since he has to keep track of who is where and also how many good laps each car has...

Dogpatch · Post by **Dogpatch** » Tue Sep 12, 2006 8:18 pm

Hey Steve-

My business eats up a lot of hours weekly. I also shoot competitively and belong to and am active in two other clubs. I don't have the time to become active with another club that's located several hours from where I live.
I helped with setup at Pagoda, Giants and Duryea this year because I had the time.
I am well aware of the fact that putting on and or running any kind of event takes a lot of hard work and effort of many people.
I attend the Hill Climbs for the same purpose that others go to football games, baseball games, and NASCAR Races, etc...my pleasure. I would be willing to bet that they aren't asked or expected to work the event that they paid to attend. If the event organizers don't do their job properly than people will choose to spend their money elsewhere. I am no different.
I agree it is easy to sit on the sideline and point out problems but that is all I have time to do by way of this forum. I'm not trying to be a pain in the arse or cause trouble but someone (event organizers) needs to take the bull by the horns and fix things.

Kurt
Prince PR01 DSR #08

Matt Green · Post by **Matt Green** » Tue Sep 12, 2006 9:15 pm

Dogpatch wrote: The Worker: the worker should be there to enjoy the event by working. Sounds silly but there is a whole group of people that really do enjoy working at events. A job well done, the commardairie, the food, the cars competing and the festive nature of the event is why they come out. They should be renumerated for their service with but not limited to: pay, expenses, lodging and any other perks that make sense and that the organizer and sponsoring club decides is apropraite.

The Organizer/Sponsoring Club: Since this is where the money goes it is their responsibilty to put on a proper event for the Drivers. Its their responsibility to provide an adequate group of qualified workers.

Kurt and all-

Allow me to pose a few thoughts (like you have a choice...

)

Let's say we increase the Duryea entry fee to $175. This gives us $40 more per entry. With 100 entries, we generate an additional $4000.

At Duryea, we had approximately 40 workers and officials. This make possible a dispensation of $100 per person.

Questions-

Do you feel $100 is proper compensation for working the event?

Would YOU (meaning any reader of this) pay the additional entry if you knew it was going to compensate workers?

Are there 99 other people who will pay that?

I'm NOT trying to make this sound negative, I'm actually truly asking how drivers would feel about this.

If this would actually happen I have a few ideas on how to use this to help even out our worker situation.

I'm not sure that this would help with the shortened event situation, but it would be a way to encourage more worker participation...

Dogpatch · Post by **Dogpatch** » Tue Sep 12, 2006 9:15 pm

Matt

For me personally I would pay the extra fee amount. Saying that I must also say that every driver has a different set of priorities so others may not want to or be able to afford it. How does SCCA recruit, train and keep their workers? They seem to understand the process involved. Maybe National can help us. Call Kansas.

Kurt
Prince PR01 DSR #08

Have a picture for you from Jefferson.

Matt Green · Post by **Matt Green** » Tue Sep 12, 2006 9:17 pm

Actually right now all areas are having issues with recruitment and retainment, especially with workers. This is a problem that is not isolated to our little corner of the world.

FV195 · Post by **FV195** » Tue Sep 12, 2006 11:21 pm

For me, funds are allways short, but I think the workers that show up at most events should get their SCCA membership paid for. I would pay a little more in entry fees for that.
Lots of the workers we get, pay the scca fees so they can work(paying to stand on a hill or track, I don't think thats fair.
my.02
THOR

jgrausa · Post by **jgrausa** » Wed Sep 13, 2006 6:14 am

Steve Tumolo wrote:think about attending a meeting to see all that goes on behind the scenes.

When and where is the next BMR meeting and is there an agenda developed before the meeting?

I'm not sure why that system wasn't implemented at this event, but it probably had to do with no one taking the initiative to step up and coordinate it. Granted, that system doesn't solve all the issues with catch ups, but it was worth the time and was a big help to me.

Will this be an item to be discussed at that next meeting?

Regards,
Joe Rausa
#23

Matt Green · Post by **Matt Green** » Wed Sep 13, 2006 7:55 am

The next BMR meeting is on Wed the 20th at 7pm at the Works in Wyomissing. Go to http://www.gearedforfun.com for directions.

I typically try to get an agenda out before the meeting on the BMR forums, but have not always done so. If you'd like to come an discuss the issue, we can make sure we have a spot on the agenda to do so. So as it is, I'm sure there will be some discussion on the event in that sectino of the meeting, so your input would be appreciated, especially if you were there to discuss things in person...

PA Hillclimb