Duryea Novice Only Touring Runs

[rallynutdon]

What other form of racing has Touring Runs? Autocross? Road Racing? Rally?

Most rallies today do have an optional "shakedown" stage offered. Sometimes you pay extra and it's always before the event. It's usually only 1-2 miles for the exact purpose you'd think.
MHO, touring mandatory for novices, optional for anyone else.

[dspgti]

Could happen Steve but I've seen touring shut down because of mishaps. Again, Giants went fine. As it is now, touring takes about as much time as a complete set of runs. I'd rather be going 9/10ths and coming around a blind curve with a clear track knowing I won't find a car sideways in the road.

Dave Y.

[dspgti]

Let me make another point. Novices have had the best saftey records, rarely causing a problem. It's the "experienced drivers" that seem to cause all of the problems. Yes, I'm included. I spun at Rose Valley on a touring run, crashed twice at Weatherly and blew two motors at Summit. Come to think of it maybe you should ban me

Dave Y.

[Mel Horn]

Let me make another point. Novices have had the best saftey records, rarely causing a problem. It's the "experienced drivers" that seem to cause all of the problems. Yes, I'm included. I spun at Rose Valley on a touring run, crashed twice at Weatherly and blew two motors at Summit. Come to think of it maybe you should ban me

Dave Y.

("Grandpa, tell us another story!""OK, kids, here we go...")

Back in the late '70s one of our most experienced and accomplished drivers did what some of us thought impossible...crashed on a touring run!

It was Charlie Markham, in his BMW 2002 that had never been a street car, at Pine Grove. Rolled through the trees after hooking a tire off the edge.

[Nelson]

This topic has been quiet for a whole day time to get it moving again.

Since I was one of the first to talk about this topic with Matt Rowe at Giant's I'll put my two cents in.

The whole thing looks doable to me. The only problem might be with two driver novice cars. Right now we have three cars that are two driver cars with both drivers being novices with a possibility of a couple more. The cars registered so far are all cars with two front seats. The total number of novices registered so far is 20.

I would like to hear suggestions for doing two driver novice cars before I make my suggestions. I can think of two possible solutions.

[dspgti]

Yeah, keep it going Nelson.

Can I get a clarrification here? The TT rules require a novice orientation/ instruction, correct? Do they say anything about having to be a drive in thier car for the orientation. Why not stay with the current "Novice Instruction" being a talk and walk through (drive in a truck). I think it's very helpfull to see the road close up and get detailed tips on hazards that exist at each particular hill. Then go into full runs for everybody in thier particular run groups with the first run not timed. Meets everyones requirements, doesn't it. Go fast, go slow, scrub tires, bed brakes, test adhesion whatever. Take bedding brakes as an example. Those of us with track only cars can't bed their brakes before we get to an event. If you are familiar with most beddig procedures, it is dangerious to do during a touring run. If you have to wait for a timed run to do it you will have everyone confused, rapid slowing to almost a stop from different speeds etc. You get the picture.
Can I get an "AMEN" !

Dave Y

[Rich Sweigart]

Dave,

I am ok with the first run being untimed, practice run.

Rich

[Nelson]

The TT rules require a novice orientation/ instruction, correct?

From the TT rules:
4.6. OFFICIAL AND PRACTICE RUNS
1. All competitors must make at least one practice run. The
Chief Steward may waive this requirement.

The idea behind just having novices run a touring run was to free up time for another timed run. Running one session of non-timed runs will take longer than the one hour that we have touring runs now.

We are hoping that by just having novices run a touring run along with the novice orientation, was to get another timed run in.

[dspgti]

By the sound of it, many competitors are asking for the option or had a desire for some kind of familiarization run. What some of us are asking for is something close to a full speed familiarization. That's a through away timed run in essence.
Rarley does anyone have the first run of the weekend as thier best run. It is usually a progression of getting familiar with conditions, adjusting driving line, tweaking adjustments etc. I belivieve we are looking to try to get to that point sooner.
If that doesn't work, then my vote is for touring for novices only. Let's get to timed runs sooner.

Dave Y.

[Steve Tumolo]

Nelson,


So in the spirit of trying to get things going sooner, for more timed runs, is it even an option to have a novice meeting Friday nite before an event ? To go over the basics and to cover all of the speeches that are normally given before the novices go up the hill.


Is the next step going to be NOT having a drivers meeting saturday morning? Almost everything that is said is things we have heard many times. Any important information about the road conditions and new hazards...etc. can be written in the sups for the event. We can then have a quick meeting Sunday morning to go over any of the official business that covers any problems/concerns from saturday.

[brandonl]

Since stewards can waive the *required* practice runs for the experienced guys, why not just make it optional for the non novice drivers? We green horns will still be required to make at least one touring run, and the option can be exercised by anyone else with set up changes or who wants to check out the road conditions. I also like the idea of a mentor driver or novice instructor, if there are people will to donate their time that would be great.

Brandon

[Matt Rowe]

As the guy that started this original discussion I will give you a little background into why I first brought up the concept.

First, in my opinion Touring runs are the only real potential for mulitcar incidents.

Second, they are of limited value. For drivers that have seen the hill almost nothing new can be gained, unless they are hanging back to get a run at a couple turns, which is not what should be done. The speeds, viewpoints (if you can see around the car in front) do not help drivers.

Third, the primary issues we have had with novices is them not knowing staging, start line and turn around procedures.

Fourth, the novice orientation of taking people up the hill in a group and pointing out critical areas does appear helpfule to the novices and does not impact the schedule. Neither does the novice meeting

So those are the major points I was working from. Now my idea was to eliminate touring and replace it with a way to familiarize novices with the staging, start and turn around procedures at a controlled speed. I believe the orientation has merit and should be kept and we have been doing it without any delays to the schedule.

The issue we are still trying to decide is what to do with two driver cars when they are bith novices. Also, I have some concerns about getting the orientation done and then getting all of the novices lined up in the cars right away.

A couple of other notes, there is no requirement that you must go flat out in the first timed run. Many people already treat that run as familiarization but I don't believe we should take away the option to have it timed. If the car is running at risk

As for the novice meeting on friday's I can see issues with getting everyone in the same place at the same time on Friday night. Saturday is hard enough to arrange. Also, the hills are closed to traffic on Saturday morning, Firday night you would have people walking in traffic, possibly in dark conditions.

I also don't see the driver's meeting going away. For one thing, it doesn't prevent us from getting started on time so getting rid of it won't get any more runs. Second, I work very hard to keep the meeting to a minimum but there are some things that need to be covered. Also it is our only oppourtunity to cover details that change. Ask Hugh about the hay bales at Rose Valley that were covered in the meeting that he missed and was caught off guard coming into the esses. As for writing things into the supps. Not everyone reads them and they are written months before the event so that won't work.

I'm sure I'll more on this later but I'll give eveyone a chance to digest this.

[dspgti]

COME ON, WE ARE FADING HERE!
Let's keep the conversation going on this issue.

At least let's agree on: Give the novices an orientation, ONE touring run for each driver. Make it optional for "experienced drivers" to make ONE touring run and wave the others who want to get to timed runs sooner!!!!!!

COME ON LET'S GIVE IT A TRY!!!!

Dave Y.

[MikeF]

From a novice perspective.

I appreciate the information provided at the novice meeting and tour of the course.

The only hill I’ve ever actually had the opportunity to drive on a regular day is Reading, so, touring runs are very useful for me to help my confidence level and pick out a line and potential dangers on the course. I’d feel a lot more comfortable with at least one familiarization run, without the pressure of being clocked.

I will admit that at Pagoda, I was a bit confused to when touring runs ended though and ended up being first in line for a hot run when I wasn’t completely ready to attack. Not sure if that is a common problem or just my ADD. ;P

[Matt Rowe]

COME ON, WE ARE FADING HERE!
At least let's agree on: Give the novices an orientation, ONE touring run for each driver. Make it optional for "experienced drivers" to make ONE touring run and wave the others who want to get to timed runs sooner!!!!!!

This still ignores the potential safety issues of having several cars running nose to tail. also, I feel some drivers would feel that by skipping the optional touring run they are loosing out on seat time and we would still have a large number of experienced drivers taking touring runs. In my opinion the best solution is still to drop touring for all but the novices.

Nelson and I have no problem with providing extra room behind somone trying to shake down a car on their first run or something along those lines. But if people are concerned about being pressured by the thought of being timed then the sports racer tailgating them up the hill isn't going to make them feel any more relaxed. Having a controlled gap between cars seems to be the best solution and that can be easily done with timed runs.

[gdh57]

As someone still pretty new to this, I find the touring runs to be very helpful in learning the hill. I suspect that they will become less useful as I start to remember the course from running the hill the previous year.

However, what I don't particularly like about the touring runs is having a driver that has run the hill for years and knows every turn riding my tail up the hill. I even had one person get a little rude about it (oddly enough, the results show my fastest time for the weekend was actually better than this person's fastest time ).

I don't care about the rudeness, and understand the frustation someone might feel getting stuck behind me the first time I drive up a hill -- I am cautious and would prefer not to crash on a touring run! But it certainly makes me nervous to have someone riding that close.

Grace

[RX-Midget]

Like Grace, I am also a novice to the hills. The Touring runs a a huge help, even after you drive up in a street car and take the tour with instructors in the trucks. My big problem is the view point changes from 6ft off the ground in the trucks or walking, to only 3ft or so. I've missed so many things while walking that I see when driving.

It already sounds like you want to keep touring for novice drivers, but I'm not sure I'd be comfortable enough to run any of the hills a year later without a touring run.

>>Now where do I hit the take off for the "Jump" at Weatherly and is my visual marker still there if I remember it?<<

My memory isn't what it used to be (or maybe what it should be ), so I'd like to keep touring runs open to anyone that wants them, on a voluntary bases.

Along with what Grace said about people riding your tail on touring runs, I also had one occurance of a driver so close on the way DOWN the hill, I could not see him in my side mirrors and only half of the car in my rearview. I really thought they were going to hit my tailpipe that sticks out the back. Why anyone would want to tailgate a stinky rotory powered car is beyond me .

[Mel Horn]

As someone still pretty new to this, I find the touring runs to be very helpful in learning the hill. I suspect that they will become less useful as I start to remember the course from running the hill the previous year.

However, what I don't particularly like about the touring runs is having a driver that has run the hill for years and knows every turn riding my tail up the hill. I even had one person get a little rude about it (oddly enough, the results show my fastest time for the weekend was actually better than this person's fastest time ).

I don't care about the rudeness, and understand the frustation someone might feel getting stuck behind me the first time I drive up a hill -- I am cautious and would prefer not to crash on a touring run! But it certainly makes me nervous to have someone riding that close.

Grace

We can all be grateful for Grace under pressure...(sorry!)

In all seriousness (who, me?) I have also wondered if we might pay a little more attention as to how we are lined up for touring...I know you can plan something to death but if we let the potentially faster cars go first you will not have the situation like Grace describes.

Back in the day we had to line up in class for timed runs. I don't think we need to go that far but you get the idea.

[dspgti]

Okay, you have heard it form both ends. The novices want the walk through and a run without the pressure of being timed. Experienced and semi-experienced drivers want a no pressure run without looking in thier mirrors for someone up thier but. Anxiuos drivers want a clear view and go at thier comfortable familiarization speed. The starters are already prepared to give extra time to anyone who needs it for a shake down.

Sounds to me like a non timed, full clear course run for novices and anyone else who wants to take it in thier intended groups is the solution. Be prepared because I bet 95% will take it. I know that would be my choice.

Does this accomplish the intended rationale of getting to timed runs sooner? No, actually it will be later. The first round of runs will be pretty slow but if a few drivers decide not to take it might help shorten it up. Again, I want to get a look at the course at 90% while others need a 50% run. I believe it gets everone up to thier speed sooner, timed or not.

If you decide to do it the old way at Duryea, at least limit the touring runs to 1 each. If you decide to do nothing, at least poll all the drivers or give out a quetionaire for comments. I'd be glad to write it up and produce copies. This forum is a good cross section of drivers and officials but it is a small group compared to the number of competitors not involved with this thread.

Dave Y.

[///Mracer]

I think that giving the non-novices an Option to run touring (or whatever you want to call it) is a mistake. It either has to be all or nothing or you will not accomplish the goal of speeding things up.