How about no touring runs as in the past? We would give the normal novice orientation than have the novices get in their cars and follow a course car(s) up the hill. This wil show the new drivers the hill and how to do the turn around and holding areas. For this to work the novice drivers will have to have their cars ready to go when they report for orientation. It may be necessary to run two groups for this.
No touring runs would be offered for non-novices. We would than be able to go right to timed runs
This is actually an idea that Matt Rowe has been pondering for some time, and it wound up being discussed at Rose Valley...
At this point, I felt that we should do what we have been through the end of the season. I think we need to investigate exactly how the Novice orientation and all will work before we jump into things too quickly.
I think the idea is a good one, I just want to work out all the logistics first prior to trying it at an event that will be as full as Duryea...
Just my opinion though.
Matthew A. Green --- mattgreen(at)msquaredracing(dot)com
M"squared" Racing! --- http://www.msquaredracing.com/
Former Chair- TTAC and TTSC
It sounds good to me too. As TT rules say they must be offered. Chief Steward may also wave for reg lic drivers. Novice must have some drive through instuction, so it looks like a good plan to me.
Tim Royer wrote: Duryea would be a good max participant event to try this on.
Not to mention the shear length of the course to have people drive up and back. That sure is a lot of time to be cruising around for people that know the course intimately.
I guess that I am old fashioned but, I like making at least one touring/practice run to make sure that the car is running right and doing everything it suppose to be doing. Plus, I like to use a touring run to gauge what condition the course is in; especially, wet conditions or pavement changes.
Rich
ps Rick, I do not remember a time in which never had touring runs. I do remember a time in which we had touring runs follow by timed practice then, offical timed runs. We got rid of timed practice after a few drivers wrecked during practice and never got an offical timed run.
From an event management standpoint, I think it's a great idea to not do touring runs for everyone. It's time consuming to send people up the hill slowly, turn them around, and send them back down. It cuts into time that could be used getting official times and is a tedious process for those already familiar with the hill.
On the other hand, it's not just novices that need these touring runs. There are a good number of drivers that change cars from race to race or season to season and may not know their car well enough yet to handle it properly at competition speed on the course -- regardless of how many times they've been up the hill previously. Also, sometimes hills change as far as wear and tear on the roads, new paving, and an assortment of other public road maladies. We all know that drivers can get into the “heat of the moment” and the instant that the run is officially timed, better judgment may not be used.
Of course, we should all hope that a seasoned driver will have the good sense to take his/her first run up the hill according to his/her comfort level with the car. The argument can be made that the elimination of touring runs means that many more timed runs, so the negative impact of a slow first timed run is largely negated.
Generally, I think it's a good idea to eliminate touring runs for all but the novice drivers, but there are times when non-novices should be allowed a touring run.
If someone has made some recent changes to the car and wants to "test" it on a touring run, fine. But we need to draw the line somewhere. For example, I would say if you just finished some major work, such as putting a completely new chassis and suspension under your car, you should be allowed (or maybe mandated) a touring run. Anything less than that should be decided on a case by case basis.
I think we should try it at Duryea. See how it goes, fine tune it as required.
What other form of racing has Touring Runs? Autocross? Road Racing? Rally? At every TT event that I have gone to I have been frustrated by the Touring Run requirement. I have never learned anything from driving slow behind someone who has no idea of the "driving line". However, I have often been the mentor for several new drivers that I simlpy said "follow me". They have told me that was really helpfull.
Novice orientation is necessary and important. I'm all for a new format. Let's try something new and make adjustments as need be. Let's get to racing sooner. Every timed run is a chance to learn and improve.
Dave Yeager, EL&M Auto Recycling, S. Jersey
H/P Rabbit GTI, National Club Racing
ITC Scirocco, Regional CR, Time Trials
MKIII Golf, LeMons/Chump car
V1 TR4, Vintage/ Historic
Formula SAE, SOLO II
V1 Sprite
500 Late Model Parts Cars
I also see little benifit in driving up slowly for non-novices. Granted most drivers go 70-80% during touring runs, but if you are behind a slow bunch of cars, you really do not get a good "look" at the turns. I would rather have an extra timed run and choose to drive 90% at my discretion.
Matt
Matt - '95 M3 (now in ITE trim!)
Jefferson Spr. C.W. - 57.5 (SM Record 06)
Pagoda - 60.9 (BSP Record 05)
Duryea - 123.6 (ITE '06)
Since novices must be at registration the friday before an event, what about having a novice meeting friday nite to get all of the "talking" part of novice instruction out of the way. Then on saturday morning call novices to the line in their cars at a set time.
I also see this as a way to get a Mentoring program under way. Get some drivers together who have been doing this for years and assign them a "student" or two who are driving a similar car. The Mentors can help the students with the racing line or any other questions from car set up to where the cheapest place for parts is. The Mentors will be under the "Chief Instructor" and could report to him anything he should know about a student. I would love to sign up to be a Mentor and I am sure there are quite a few Veterans who would also like to do it.
Last edited by Steve Tumolo on Thu Aug 03, 2006 10:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
Steve Tumolo wrote:Since novices must be at registration the friday before an event, what about having a novice meeting friday nite to get all of the "talking" part of novice instruction out of the way. Then on saturday morning call novices to the line in their cars at a set time.
To add what I said before the only time I benefited from a touring run was back when I was a novice on an unfamiliar course. Like Dave stated Touring runs do nothing for me. It's a totally different course at speed and I could never see it as anything more then a drive up the hill. You learn to drive the course and improve your skills while driving at speed at your own pace. A real world test of this was when I went down and raced Sowshoe Hill Climb the other week. I took one drive down, turned around and saw the start and finish line. While driving up the hill I just took little mental notes on were the first braking point was and tried to remember the course turns. After racing the weekend I took drive down and video taped the course trying to do comintary on the way up. I must say it was a different vantage point and reminded me of when I first started racing the hills.
I believe touring and instruction is critical to novices. Regular drivers have no benefit doing touring unless just doing it to shake a car down. First timed run should be a shake down at 90% anyway,so I believe this could be done on the first timed run.
My Dad (one of our safety stewards) raised a good point from a safety stance. "Sending a group of cars up at one time goes against the whole idea of hillclimbing. It sets up the possibility of contact between cars and it has happened."
Thought I'd throw that perspective in as well. With that in mind, I'm all for eliminating all touring runs except for Novices and drivers who have done major overhauls of their cars.
I remember my first hillclimb. It was Duryea in 1994. During my very first novice run I was following Fred Thum in a Cobra 427 Replica. He spun right in front of me in turn 7. Left a big impression on me!
Dave Yeager, EL&M Auto Recycling, S. Jersey
H/P Rabbit GTI, National Club Racing
ITC Scirocco, Regional CR, Time Trials
MKIII Golf, LeMons/Chump car
V1 TR4, Vintage/ Historic
Formula SAE, SOLO II
V1 Sprite
500 Late Model Parts Cars
I think touring should be offered, take as you wish. those who know my probablem, under stand I want touring runs to make sure I can get up the hill. I have run all the hills @ some point, making you take touring is not right. my first run sat. or sun is allways @ 80% I call it sprited touring. but thats just me. If you have not done a rebuild on your car and want the runs, they should be allowed. Matt R. knows I want more timed runs every event. thats my story and I'm sticking to it.
THOR
FV#195
sending praise to those who let us do what we do, and doing it so well.
"If you think the PHA is run badly go run Hershey! you will love the way we do things.
My own opinion is that the format used at Giants was great. Touring was one at at time, full open coarse, no time posted. Why not do the same for every event. It doesn't have to start the day before. Just do novice orientation, go to one run each, no time posted, then into timed runs. That removes the potential for contact between cars during touring, allows everyone the oportunity to run at their own pace without putting pressure on posted times. It gives time for test and fine tune, check road conditions at somewhere close to race speed etc, etc.
Just another opinion.
Good idea Dave but what happens when someone is only going at 20% up the hill and a guy going 80% is fast approaching from behind? If you make it a whole run group set up, basically a first run that is not timed, I think that would take more time than doing a few sets of open touring. Not to mention the added potential of someone messing up on a touring run the first time up a hill causing clean up..etc.
