Ultima & SCCA?

dfink12 · Post by **dfink12** » Thu Mar 02, 2006 10:18 am

They do offer two cage options but I was hoping the roll bar might be enough? Has SCCA stiffened the cage requirement? I asked on the Ultima Forum if any of the owners have tried to pass tech inspection at an SCCA event. One guy was asking about autocrossing last summer so there is at least some interest.

Nelson · Post by **Nelson** » Thu Mar 02, 2006 12:27 pm

The roll bar/roll cage requirements have stayed the same for TT.

Here's the section from the level 4 requirements:
Level 4 (Hill Climbs) -
Roll cages (as specified in the GCR, Section 18 ) are required
for the following classes: GT1, Specials, Super Production, all
Formula classes, all Sports Racer classes, open GT, and open
Production vehicles. In these vehicles, the roll cage structure
must meet current GCR requirements for the specific class. If
the vehicle does not fall into a Club Racing class, the cage
should be prepared to the GCR equivalent or greater (for
example, a tube-frame Special car should be compared to a GT
class cage, while a street-driven car the ends up in Special
because of odd modifications could be comparable to a
Production or IT cage).
All other classes at Special Time Trials events are required to
have a minimum of a roll bar that meets the description in
section 18 of the TTR.
If a car is running in a Vintage or Historic class and prepared
to those specifications, they may run only a roll bar if no cage
was used at the time the car was originally raced. This applies
to all the cars with cage requirements, including Formulas
(cars) and Sports Racers. Competitors are encouraged to use
full roll cages if at all possible. The purpose of this tolerance is
to allow for original race cars to be raced in original form (or
as close as possible) without devaluing the vehicle by installing
a full roll cage. This shall NOT be interpreted to apply to kit
cars, special constructions, replicas, or any car that has been
significantly modified from its condition as originally raced.
Vintage and Historic cars may upgrade to current tires,
batteries, incidental items, and other unavailable items to
return the car to racing condition.

All other levels require only a roll bar. As always a roll cage is very highly recommended for hillclimbs.

Nelson

Matt Green · Post by **Matt Green** » Thu Mar 02, 2006 12:52 pm

Dennis-

Is the car street legal or able to be registered in the US? If so, it might be construed to fit into Street Mod, which has a bar requirement.

Otherwise, it would run Specials or Sports Racer, which both require cages.

No matter what, you also have to make sure that the bar and chassis construction itself conform to SCCA rules...

Whatever you do, don't use participation in Solo 2 as any kind of indicator.

To answer your question- the cage rules are the same as they always were (actually slightly less for the Jefferson events). Personally, I think you're nuts to run that car ANYWHERE without a cage...

Post by **Matt Rowe** » Thu Mar 02, 2006 1:08 pm

The car would not be eligible for Solo II Street Mod as it does not meet the letter or the intent of the class so street legal status really doesn't fit into it. Quite simply, we try to work within the rules as much as possible when someone shows up with a car they already own so that they can race it. But in this case if you haven't even purchased the car yet I would say the best idea by far is to get the car with a cage. The speed potential far exceeds the protection a roll bar offers and I would have a real hard time finding a way that the rules would allow only a bar.

dfink12 · Post by **dfink12** » Thu Mar 02, 2006 1:44 pm

They are definately street legal! They are designed primarily as street cars. They just happen to be so light, a decent engine makes them able to blow away anything but a Form. 1, and that's with street tires.

Thanks for all the info guys! I meant that reply to stay in the Ford GT/Ultima topic but I guess I goofed! I can tell it's going to be a challenge to figure out what class different engines put the cars in and what the resulting roll bar/cage requirements will be. I know the cage is safer but a cage really limits resale to racers, a pretty small group compared to the general population. Going the new car route means waiting 3 months till you get your parts, then spending 4-5 months assembling it.

I asked the British guys if it met SCCA rules but they don't seem to be familiar with them.

RX-Midget · Post by **RX-Midget** » Thu Mar 02, 2006 3:52 pm

dfink12 wrote:....I can tell it's going to be a challenge to figure out what class different engines put the cars in and what the resulting roll bar/cage requirements will be. I know the cage is safer but a cage really limits resale to racers, a pretty small group compared to the general population....

I'm pretty sure it will fall squarely in the Specials 3 due to the V-8 displacement.

The cage is not that obtrusive from what I remember from the picture I had seen some time ago. The cage will not make entry/exit any harder, as the sills are already well above the hip and about 12” wide.

There was a guy from NJ that was running his Ultima at Pocono at an EMRA TT when I was there with the RX-Midget.

Here is a pic of the roll cage from a car that a guy went wild with the interior.
http://img364.imageshack.us/img364/4894 ... eri9ny.jpg

Bare frame and cage:

Rear cage supports:

Wrecked Ultima at hillclimb:
http://www.nsxfiles.com/VCHillClimb.htm

Ultima videos
http://www.pistonheads.tv/Default.asp?s ... ltima&nr=1

dfink12 · Post by **dfink12** » Thu Mar 02, 2006 7:54 pm

At least my Z06 didn't catch on fire when I totaled it and I managed to keep it upright

If a 377 ci V8 keeps me in S3, I'll have all those Moreck records (with my current car) to worry about.

I guess a roll cage does save lives so I'd better watch for one or price/plan the kit with the cage, or get an estimate on a mod. of something cheaper than the Denver car, to a cage.

I looked back at the cage info and I guess the option I was recalling was that of FIA approval which I'll have to research.

Thanks again Brian!

dfink12 · Post by **dfink12** » Fri Mar 03, 2006 11:02 am

A previous SCCA racer who drives an Ultima now (mostly with NASA and clubs) brought up the magic word that gave Rick R headaches, "Homologation." Hopefully I can find out how difficult it might be to get the car homologated, if that's the right spelling.

Would those two foam filled "petrol" tanks (20 litres each) need to be upgraded also?

Help!

Matt Green · Post by **Matt Green** » Fri Mar 03, 2006 11:57 am

You do NOT need homologation for that car, so long as the tubing used follows all SCCA cage requirements. This of course is applicable to Time Trials. If you want to go Club Racing, it might be different, as the car would run ASR, and fall under the Sports Racer requirements.

Rick had an issue with Homologation because of the composite chassis.

Matt Rowe is right with regards to Street Mod though, since the car wasn't series produced in sufficient numbers (sorry for the oops).

dfink12 · Post by **dfink12** » Fri Mar 03, 2006 2:27 pm

I have no aspirations to do Club Racing so it's sounding like S3 for Time Trials, and no homologation likely to be required.

This is beginning to sound like it might be doable. The average price the guys paid in the Ultima club seems high at $95,000 so they must be really loading them with options or I'm missing something since the bare bones car with a 500+ hp V8, I thought was less than the $68K new price of the 06 Z06.

Rick Rohrbach · Post by **Rick Rohrbach** » Tue Mar 07, 2006 8:31 pm

hey, no trailer, drive to the event, kick butt, drive home........hope there is room for the trophy in the side trunks!!

RX-Midget · Post by **RX-Midget** » Wed Mar 08, 2006 10:00 am

dfink12 wrote:I have no aspirations to do Club Racing so it's sounding like S3 for Time Trials, and no homologation likely to be required.

This is beginning to sound like it might be doable. The average price the guys paid in the Ultima club seems high at $95,000 so they must be really loading them with options or I'm missing something since the bare bones car with a 500+ hp V8, I thought was less than the $68K new price of the 06 Z06.

Most of those guys are loading them up with A/C, nice interiors, and other add on stuff that does not belong in a race car in my opinion, but to each his own.

Brian

RX-Midget · Post by **RX-Midget** » Mon Apr 03, 2006 11:59 am

I talked my friend Mark into bringing his Ultima to the Jefferson just for show. He would like to eventually like to do some track events and wants to come out and see one in person. The car is at 500hp now, but we head to the dyno this Friday after he put on some new ported heads with lower C/R so we can up the boost a bit more.

http://www.markkoch.net/images/canam/inprog/side1.jpg

I somehow managed to pack all that exhaust tubing in there!
http://www.markkoch.net/images/canam/en ... gWires.jpg

Tim Royer · Post by **Tim Royer** » Mon Apr 03, 2006 12:02 pm

Turbo, very nice!!

RX-Midget · Post by **RX-Midget** » Wed Apr 12, 2006 11:26 am

We took the Ultima to the dyno last Friday and got the Electromotive tuner to tweek it a bit after Mark put on a new set of ported heads. Marks goal was 500rwhp on pump gas. Well, we managed to get 511 rwhp and 528 ft/lbs of torque @ 9.5 psi of boost. All this with a stock LS-1 with LQ-9 heads. I will post a link later to a video of the dyno run, but it was the wildest thing I have heard. It sounded like a very pissed off jet engine! After the run we looked at the logged data to see what kind of turbo lag he had, it ended up at 0.25 sec from the throttle moving to full boost with no anti-lag gizmo's

After Mark took it for a test drive, he said that it didn't feel to solid and that the front end seamed to float at speed. It was late so we packed it on the trailer and headed home. He e-mailed me a little while ago and sent these pics that show why it felt like it was floating. If you run coil overs make sure you have the rod ends lock-tited to prevent this, it could have been very bad!

Tim Royer · Post by **Tim Royer** » Wed Apr 12, 2006 12:10 pm

HI,

Wow you guys were lucky that didn't popout on the ride. Did you get EGT or AF ratio for that dyno pull?

RX-Midget · Post by **RX-Midget** » Wed Apr 12, 2006 12:20 pm

Mark has the data from the pull. We ran a wideband only this time. Last time we ran EGT's and wide band and read plugs and found the wideband to be as accurate. I'm sure he will check on the EGT's when he gets it all back together, but it was safely rich at the top end.

Tim Royer · Post by **Tim Royer** » Wed Apr 12, 2006 12:29 pm

EGT is the best and most accurate EGR is good for about 1 hour then Blahh. Just wondered, looked like the cam gives up at about 5,000 RPM or fuel. Sorry I like looking at info on pulls.

RX-Midget · Post by **RX-Midget** » Wed Apr 12, 2006 1:40 pm

The motor has enough fuel to make another 100hp. It is the stock cam, so is why it is dropping off early. I like the fact that you never need to go past 5500 rpm, and you have 500 ft/lbs torque at 4k rpm.

I'm sure with a better cam it would peak much higher, but it would be more "peaky". This combo should be easy to drive and be a little more forgiving.

RX-Midget · Post by **RX-Midget** » Wed Apr 19, 2006 2:31 pm

Here is the video from the dyno run. Google finally hosted it.....

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 9194818674

PA Hillclimb

Ultima & SCCA?

Ultima & SCCA?

Roll bar vs. cage and class for Ultima

Wow, quite a crash

Homologation

Ultima "Supercar"

Re: Ultima "Supercar"