New Time Trials Rules

[Mwilson]

Guys, I remain neutral on this topic. I will conform to whatever is decided. I think many of you are jumping the gun! Wait until the November meeting to see what outcome the meeting brings. You may find that our supps. will change very little or not at all. I don't want to see some fine officials like Matt and Larry hang it up because of some changes made by National. Good people are very hard to find.
My common sense, the little bit that I have, tells me with my car I would never consider running it without a full cage. That's just me, but I would bet that every other driver in the Special Classes would agree. As for Belts and Helmets, I tend to go with what the manufacture's suggests or what my organization recommends. Again that's just the way I see it.
We have a bunch of very intelligent drivers in the PHA, excluding me and I trust they will make the best decision for all concerned at the meeting next week. I am sorry I will not be able to attend due to some personal issues but am sure everything will work out for the betterment of all. Congratulations to all the winners for a fine season and with a little luck and a little extra cash I will see you all next season.

Morg(AKA) The Bandito

[TKnorr]

Please, before making any decisions, wait until after the PHA meeting on November 2. I assure you we will address this issue head-on. I have made a lot of phone calls to properly inform myself as to the possible avenues to solve this problem.
Tom Knorr, PHA President

[jerdeitzel]

Personal liability of event staff, regions and organizations is a great discussion to have with everyone.

[RallyKeith]

Ted, you brought up 24 hours of Lemons. This is directly from their rules page at http://www.24hoursoflemons.com/pricesandrules.aspx

"3.1: Rollbar and Structure: Professionally made full rollcage required."

Am I missing something?

Tom, I've got a Private Message headed your way about an oppurtunity I see.

Keith

[jerdeitzel]

Morg, I can't imagine going into the woods in a car like yours. Your chance of being impaled and or your body hitting something is very real. Give me a tin top with just a roll bar any day. . I had what was considered by many to be a very dangerous race car. I now have probably one of the safest cars on the hills. I sure as heck didn't need a rule book to tell me what choice to make or when to make it.

I also hope that you guys do not make such a big deal over this. As i said in my first post, i don't think its as bad as you are making it out to be. We already have classes in the supps that require full cages (i helped write a few of those rules). If you guys feel that there needs to be some more added, so be it. The PHA is one of the best organizations in the racing world IMO, and this is a good time to review old ways and determine if or what needs to be changed. Maybe nothing!

[tedebayer]

Ted, you brought up 24 hours of Lemons. This is directly from their rules page at http://www.24hoursoflemons.com/pricesandrules.aspx
"3.1: Rollbar and Structure: Professionally made full rollcage required."
Am I missing something?
Tom, I've got a Private Message headed your way about an oppurtunity I see.
Keith

Keith, I have run 2 Lemons and been to about 6. I watched Jay Lamm personally inspecting the cars ... you would be amazed to see him under cars, tapping a arms, checking welds, checking play in steering columns. He is not a fool and his tech is equal or better than many I have seen in other clubs. There is no doubt in my mind he knows what is at risk (and it is more than just his wallet). In all that I have attended, I have seen very few professionally made rollcages... but I have seen them require a car to add additional welded in bars on site... in doors, in top, in front... to be sure it met their expectations. That "professionally built" statement is a CYA... and if you were in Jay's shoes, you'd have that and a lot more clauses that were there simply for "in case".

Don't get me wrong, you are still nuts if you run LeMons but they are running wheel to wheel racing with an extremely wide disparity of driver skill and power and tires on fast courses. I have been knocked around 3 times in a LeMons event... and only once in hillclimb. The 3 times in LeMons I blamed drivers who ran out of skill in the middle of a turn. The one time in hillclimb ... well, it was me and the mountain and the mountain wasn't moving. I take responsibility for that one!

Don't decide that this is bad until you have heard it through and understand. Our TTAC reps are smart guys, our National Board of Directors approved this and ... our insurance provider supports it... they have a lot to lose and did this with very little discussion... because they were already doing this with other organizations and it was insurable in their minds. Let's give this a listen and some thought before we decide it's the end of the world as we know it. I will wager your next hillclimb will be run as it has been run... and it will continue to be the standard others work toward.

[Matt Rowe]

While many people seem to be focused on the change to the roll bar/cage rule that is actually the easiest for PHA to address (if there is a desire to do so) and the least troubling to me as an official. But there are a whole host of other rules that are now nothing more than guidelines.

Several people have pointed out that as drivers you each can make your own assessment of what level of risk you are willing to accept and that is absolutely true. You make your choices and when your behind the wheel you control your outcome. That works reasonably well for drivers but as an official I don't have that control, and without a solid rulebook to fall back on my exposure to lawsuits from victims increases. SCCA operates under the principle that officials are protected by the club (and their lawyers) as long as they can demonstrate they reasonably followed the rule book. However, when fewer rules exists judgement calls increase significantly which means a spectator or participant that is injured now has more leeway to initiate a lawsuit. While our sport has been relatively free of major incidents for several years there are some that have been around and faced police inquiries but fortunately did so with the full force of SCCA and their rule book behind them.

I strongly doubt most people will understand this perspective but that doesn't change the fact that for some of us legal and moral responsibility is a very real concern. I've personally been involved with putting people put into ambulance's or helicopters and every one of those instances plus every near miss comes with a lot of post incident examination of what we could have done differently. That includes application and interpretation of the rules that had even the slightest possibility of changing the outcome. I and every official takes everyone's safety very seriously and what may seem like a reasonable risk to you as a participant may not be something I am willing to live with or explain to a judge or worse, a family member.

I am not rushing to a judgment on this, but it is a very personal decision for many of us as to if we are comfortable with this significant change and belittling our concerns would be as off putting as those from National that either never sought or choose to ignore them.

[RallyKeith]

Several people have pointed out that as drivers you each can make your own assessment of what level of risk you are willing to accept and that is absolutely true. You make your choices and when your behind the wheel you control your outcome.

This post is in no way attacking Matt Rowe. It is instead using a quote from a post of his that reflects a point of veiw of many people that I wish to offer a counter point on.

I lost not one but two stainless steel braided brake lines coming into the last turn at fall jefferson on sunday this year. I had visually inspected those lines the night before as I switched to a different set of tire. I didn't see anything to suggest they were ready to fail. Its for this very reason that rules are to be written. It's about being safe when things out of your control happen. I got lucky and because it was a track trial there was room to run off the road. That's also why I'm not opposed to the changes for everywhere other than hillclimb. That's still where I stand. I don't even want to think about what would have happened if I was on a hill.

[mrevilracing]

Keith, I'm confused. How is losing 2 SS brake lines relevant to the rule change or level of risk?

[RallyKeith]

Keith, I'm confused. How is losing 2 SS brake lines relevant to the rule change or level of risk?

Exactly! The level of risk is the same. The rules should not have anything to do with a driver’s ability to control their situation, because as I was trying to explain you can’t control everything. I thought I was in control of everything and instead had a part fail that if had happened on a hill and not a track would have ended very differently. That's all I was trying to say and I'm not saying good or bad about these changes. I just want to try and squash the idea that you need less safety equipement becasue you're going to "go easy" in what are racing conditions.

Keith

[jerdeitzel]

I spoke with Tony Machi (retired Judge) who is on the TTAC on Saturday about the worry about legal concerns. He said that you are covered just as much now as with the old rules in place. He suggested that you contact National to speak with someone if you have any legal concerns. He also stated that if you were really that worried about the legal side of things that you could easily take out a personal policy for less then $20 to give you more then enough coverage for any possible thing that might arise. That does not help with the personal side of things in regards to someone getting injured but, that is always the case when you take on a position like Chief Steward or Safety Steward no matter what the rules are.

[Mark Aubele]

I lost not one but two stainless steel braided brake lines coming into the last turn at fall jefferson on sunday this year. I had visually inspected those lines the night before as I switched to a different set of tire. I didn't see anything to suggest they were ready to fail. Its for this very reason that rules are to be written. It's about being safe when things out of your control happen. I got lucky and because it was a track trial there was room to run off the road. That's also why I'm not opposed to the changes for everywhere other than hillclimb. That's still where I stand. I don't even want to think about what would have happened if I was on a hill.

The only thing I can garner from this post is that I think the SCCA needs to ban SS brake lines, require roll cages in FSP, and have yearly belt replacement. It is the only solution. /sarcasm/

[jerdeitzel]

FWIW, We just ran a PDX/Club trial at the Milwaukee Mile on Sat under the new rules. The self tech sheet was a big step forward and the drivers we talked to loved it. Many experienced guys comments were "its about time!"

[miniacmike]

So far the number of people commenting on this topic is very small compared to the number of racers we have in PHA. Those that care should attend the meeting on Saturday too voice your concerns and see where this goes. I'm not ready to jump off a bridge yet. I am sure a relitively fair outcome will happen. No matter what, somebody will be upset....lets hope we can keep it small.

[mrevilracing]

With a little more 'tweaking' of the rules.....I think a chin strap attached to my hard hat may qualify as an alternative to my dangerous, confusing, vision obstructing full face helmet. AND, I can choose which standard to follow regarding SFI/FIA rating due to dating. These are available at many hardware stores and removes 'barriers to entry' by cutting the cost and the complexity of shopping for a real helmet.

Besides, just think how nice and cool this thing will be in the summer heat!

[miniacmike]

Now thats funny. It is a good idea. I could cut the full cage out of my car and stop banging my head on the halo everytime I get out. It would also save some valuable weight so I could go faster. Then again I don't think they would let race with out it with my history

[jerdeitzel]

Steve, i bet your hard hat would actually be safer then you think!

Have fun at the banquet!

[jerdeitzel]

Steve, you have also mentioned that we always need more people out to help. (especially officials) The new rules really address some of the problems some regions have in getting all the licensed officials to actually run an event.

[mrevilracing]

Jeremy
I've been the Asst RE for BMR for several years now. I haven't found any issues with someone becoming an official. Its more a factor of having people VOLUNTEER to be an official. While I haven't focused on the operations portion of the new rules, I don't see the difficulty in becoming an official. Its relatively easy. So I don't understand the difficulty. What situation is presenting itself as difficult?

[jerdeitzel]

You are completely right about what it takes to become an official. What has changed is that some of the more important officials can now have more then one duty. Or basically put their name on the sanction forms and have other people help that might not have the "official" before the license. In many regions there are plenty of times when you do not have enough people with those licenses. (even as easy as they are to get) Under the old rules, you basically were breaking the rules if the Chief Steward and SS were or the same person or at least the only one with the correct license.