How to give points?

[Nelson]

I need a clarification on the rules pertaining to the Lloyd Geib, Mileage and Overall trophies. I am putting this to the general PHA membership because that is how these items are traditionally decided.

Here's the question:
For the Class championship, if a competitor runs 2 cars at the same event they get points based on the car class. example: Ralph runs a car in S1 (places 2nd) and another car in S2 (places 3rd). He would get 9 points in S1 and 8 points in S2. The points would not add up.
For the other 3 championships, how should the points be given.

The question is: Should the points go to the individual driver or go to the driver/car combination.

Examples:
Lloyd Geib - Ralph beat no cars in S1, total of 2 in class for 10 points. In S2 he beat 1 car, total of 4 in class for 20 points. Should he get a total of 30 points in his name or should he get 10 points for his S1 car and 20 points for his S2 car?

The poll question is:
Should the points go to the driver or to the car/driver combination?

[gdh57]

How would it work for mileage? Looks like either method means the driver gets all the miles from both cars that count towards the award?

[rickshank]

I think neither of those options.

Pick the higher score for either from the driver, so "points" becomes a maximum of one per event.

Score 10 points in S1 and 8 points in S2, you get 10 points for that weekend.

Run 15 miles in S1, 20 miles in S2, you get 20 miles for the weekend.

Still gives slight advantage to running 2 cars (and PHA/SCCA got more $), but doesn't completely blow the rest of the competition out of the water.

[Nelson]

For class championship, the points are awarded to the car.

For the other 3 awards:
If vote for the driver, the driver would get all of the points for the event. Ex: Ralph has 5 miles on the S1 car and 4 miles on the S2 car he would get 9 miles.

If vote for the driver/car, he would get 5 miles for the S1 car and 4 miles for the S2 car. The totals would be added up for each car.
Ralph would have 2 entries for mileage that would be counted separately.

[Tim Royer]

Does everyone know or familiar with what the rules are for each of these awards??

This makes the most sense to me.

Pick the higher score for either from the driver, so "points" becomes a maximum of one per event.

Score 10 points in S1 and 8 points in S2, you get 10 points for that weekend.

Run 15 miles in S1, 20 miles in S2, you get 20 miles for the weekend.

Totaling the 5 and 4 miles? That makes no sense when everyone else can only do 5 miles.

driver/car, he would get 5 miles for the S1 car and 4 miles for the S2 car. The totals would be added up for each car.

Mileage should be by car number not a total of both cars. It should be treated like 2 different drivers or an individual driver number not a combination. I have driven 2 cars at a couple events in the past. It's not for the combined points it's for the enjoyment of running 2 cars in that event. More runs!! Their should be no advantages over others driving in 2 different classes.

[Rayk101]

Agreed with Tim. Right now i kno I'm the one in advantage but that should be a change for next year. I Think all other awards are fair the way they stand. Hands down Grace deserves the Milage award more then me.

-Ray

[gdh57]

Actually Kris as well, but I'm more concerned that we are consistent.

If you run 2 cars and are eligible for 2 class awards at the event, you should be eligible for year end class awards and all overall awards, including Loyd Geib, and Mileage.

Since there was no rule in place when the season started, it seems unfair at this point to change it and say you can only pick one car from each event. It also seems unfair to say your runs count for mileage but not the other overall trophies.

I would recommend that we let your runs count towards all trophies this year, since that is what we have done in the past for others who have run 2 cars. If there is a policy change, it needs to be decided before the season starts, not at the end.

And as far as a policy change goes, I'd recommend what Rick is suggesting, except I think we should ask the competitor running 2 cars (or one car in 2 classes) that they pick a class they are competing in before that event rather than letting them pick the one they did better in after the event is over. They can still run twice but the other runs are non-competition. Fun Runs.

That is the only reason I'd run 2 cars anyway -- for fun -- and I'm sure that is all Ray was doing in the first place. If I had 2 Sciroccos and a way to get them to the events, I'd probably be doing the same thing (I'd also make sure they were both silver to drive Nelson crazy ).

[jerdeitzel]

So can we run a car in 2 different classes? Make a small change and it's a different car.

I find it crazy that you would combine points for someone who drove 2 cars for any overall points. Just seems so wrong! I guess I can't even understand why that would have to addressed. It might not be written in stone but it's one of those given rules that everyone I think would agree on.

What does Dave Y say? He is the one who came up with those awards!

[Rich Rock]

Dave Yeager came up with the idea for the Overall and Lloyd Geib awards. Tim Williams started tracking mileage some years ago and I proposed that we make that a special award.

At the time, the people who were driving the most miles were doing it with one car, and the original intent was that the winner would be someone who did it driving one car at each event. That's the way we've been doing it and I think that's the way we should continue to do it. It should not be a competition to see who can enter the most events with two cars.

I talked to Dave Yeager this morning. Dave feels that the Overall and Lloyd Geib Awards should be calculated the same way, that a person who enters two cars can only accumulate points toward those awards based on the finishing position of one car (the one that does better) at each event.

[Matt Rowe]

Rich Rock's description matches my own description and interpretation on the idea behind the awards. Typically I would say agree with Grace that mid year changes or clarifications to the rules are to be avoided. However, in this case it's a clarification where the main beneficiary has already agreed that it wasn't his intent to exploit a loophole in the rules to gain an advantage so I would say let's document the updated criteria and make the change now.

I have to say though this is one of the reasons I think we have the best group of competitors in PHA. Instead of seeing people stake out there positions and defend what is in their own best interests you can see everyone going out their way to be gracious and reasonable.

[TKnorr]

For this season, the solution to this situation should relate to the original intent of these awards by the originators. After talking to both originators, both awards will be determined by the total miles/total points accumulated by a driver in one car in one class. All officers concur with this decision. Ths issue can be revisted at a future PHA meeting.
Tom Knorr, PHA President

[Nelson]

I'll go through the points and make sure they are calculated as Tom indicated.

[Rayk101]

The T1 car can get scratched.. All I care about is the ESP car and the battle within. I still don't agree with changing things pass mid season. But if so it don't look to affect me that much anyway. It is what it is. I just don't agree with changing things past mid season. This isn't the first time someone ran two cars so why all of a sudden make changes now. If changing the rules would make morale go up, so be it. Just be sure that the rules are clear for next season.

Although, why if you own two cars and are able to enter two cars , can't they both count and be competiable?

[Rich Rock]

I think there is a misunderstanding here. We were discussing the three Special awards , not class championships.

For the record, I believe that anyone who competes in two different cars in different classes should be eligible for year-end class awards with both cars. If Ray enters enough events to qualify for a class championship with both the ESP and the T-1 car and earns enough points to win both classes, he should get two trophies, absolutely! He, or anyone else, just can't combine points toward the special awards.

[Rayk101]

Ok, sorry Rich. I was taking it as all together you had to pick one car or the other. But yes, I agree that the Geib, mileage,and over all, should only be based off the better of the two cars. Even though I was ahead, I was going to mention before awards banquet, to have the mileage award printed in the person's name below me anyway due to how consistent they were instead of me being ahead just because I run two cars. Lets keep this fun but fair.

Cheers -Ray

[TKnorr]

Rich is correct. You can win more than one class championships. This is not a change of rules; it is based on the original intent of the mileage and Lloyd Geib awards.
Tom Knorr, PHA President

[dspgti]

HELLO One and all!

Glad you could all work this out without my 2 cents. After all, you know how emotional I get and you don't want to get me started again. It's been nice and civilized here.

You know I have always been for the little guy. The dedicated competitor that is a consistant sportsman. It's giving chances to those that don't have the most money or resources for an FTD. In the beggining there were no "rules" for these awards. Just ideas to reward hard working, dedicated competitors. I think you have all stuck with the spirit of award.

I would like to state my opinion about multiple cars and drivers since I expected a challenge at Duryea since my son and I would be racing the same car in two different classes. In Club Racing (our governing body) it is common for a car (Miata) to meet all the rules for more than one class (SM, SSM, ITA, STU, STL and others) without making a single change to the car. This allows several drivers or the same driver to run different races the same weekend since each class usually has a different run group. My Rabbit was entered in Duryea by me in HP and my son in FP. The car meets every spec of the rules except in HP I have to run 175 pounds of ballast to come up to minimun weight. Since I had a health problem that weekend and I could not race, the question did not come up.

My point is this. A car should be able to be entered in multiple classes by single or mulitple drives as long as it meets every spec of both classes. Might be difficult to get more than 2 per car at a hillclimb but unlimited at a track event (or Polish Mt).

When it comes to points, I'm sticking with one car, one driver per event. Except class championships. Then a driver could enter cars in any number of classes and accumulate points for that class.

Am I making sense?
Can I hear an Amen?

Good Luck to you all and might see you at a hill next year.
Dave Yeager