Polish mtn

[miniacmike]

looks like me and Donna will be able to go after all!!
Hey Steve....you think you could show me the line,it really helped at giants.Thanks again for that.
I would also like to thank D Danko for his version of the line too.Last but not least I would like to thank the
guy from the Danko camp for welding my clutch z-bar bracket.That was the most fun I ever had at a hillclimb,can't
wait to go back next year!

[Speednation]

Glad to hear that. I am doing registration for this event, If you have any questions, feel free to call me at 412-882-3100. Several new people from the National Road Autosport ranks are coming to this event and it will be their first hillclimb. Hopefully we can get them to go to the rest of the PHA events as well. The one issue that keeps coming , and came up with these guys as well, are the Street Prepared classes that we run. Their cars are both prepared to BSP specs except for the fact that they don't have back seats.

There seems to be a lot of misunderstanding about the SP rules in the PHA, and I know why. It can be confusing for this reason. First of all, when I would take my ITA car to an SCCA autocross, I could run it in DSP even though it had no interior. The Solo 2 rules were written so that a road race car could compete at an autocross as long as it did not mix/match road race and Solo 2 rules. For example, an IT car would not be allowed to run wide wheels. The wheels had to conform to IT rules. However, an autocross legal SP car has no restriction when it comes to wheel size or tires sticking out beyond the fenders. But then again, a Solo 2 legal car has to have a full interior.

A few of us have been running in the SP classes at hillclimbs and TT without back seats - some without passenger seats. In order to qualify for a SP class at a hillclimb, your car has to be Solo 2 legal in that class. That is what I told these new guys, and which is why they will have to run in Street Mod at Polish. So to be fair, if you are running in SP, please make sure you have a full interior so these guys don't come to the event and say: "well that guy is running in SP with no back seat - why can't I". Thanks, Mike

[mrevilracing]

NP Mike. We should be there early on Friday and I'll take ya up the hill.

SP rules. Easy there. I could do a rear seat delete kit and it would be perfectly legal.
The rear seat is a big flag. Just put it back in and run the class the car is built to. Why is that an issue?

[Rich Rock]

Mike,

Why don't these cars have back seats?

Rich Rock

[Mark Aubele]

Mike,

Why don't these cars have back seats?

Rich Rock

Note: Sarcasm so thick a sawsall is needed to get through it

Well, if they did, then noone would have reason to complain about them not being able to run in SP with an illegal car. You see, it plants in the readers head ahead of time that they really should've been allowed to run in SP even though they are illegal because "the rules are stupid". I know I saw a few cars at Giants' that were, ahem, misclassed in SP, so why should the guys from National Road have to run in the proper class? Hell, I heard a couple SP cars that had idles wackier than my 8.5 to 1 302 that has near 250 degrees duration (at .050) on the intake/exhaust, so I guess that gives everyone the right to just blatantly break rules. Unless there is a bar directly running to the floor where the backseat was, just PUT THE BACK SEAT IN AND STOP WHINING. Thank you.

[mrevilracing]

Sawsall is spelled SAWZALL. Dewalt makes a nice cordless.

And since you got me thinking, I have to go and track down some 2000 Cobra R guys to find out what material theirs was made out of. Mark, ya always have to get me thinking in 500 directions about how to go faster!!!!

[jerdeitzel]

Here we are again. Right back were we started.

[mrevilracing]

No kidding. Now I want my back seat out again and have a thread started on SVTperformance for pictures and make up of the rear seat delete for the '00 Cobra R from Ford. Hoping to duplicate it without buying a rear seat delete kit. Looks like the '95 Cobra R had the carpet for the back portion of the seat velcro'd on and the seat portion was made of something that snapped down...thats according to pictures I've seen. Either way, I'm researching! And I don't want to use a sawzall, Mark! Not unless I am gonna make a convertible Mach.

[mrevilracing]

We are all gonna learn about rear seats and mustangs. And this one is gonna require some input from one of the Matts before I am required to go to SCCA tech for it.

I've been chatting with a 2000 Cobra R owner. And now another one has popped into the conversation. So the deal is this: '95 and 2000 Cobra R's did NOT have a back seat. They did, however, have a cover there. The seat portion was made of the same mdf-type material as the cover over top of the spare tire and that was covered with a carpet-like material. VERY light weight. I actually still have the spare tire cover for the Mach in the house.

Anyway, the mdf stuff only covered the bottom portion of where the actual seat went. The carpet-type material covered that and then extended upwards to the rear speaker deck. There was a piece of velcro that went the width of the deck and that's all that held it up.

You can see a picture of the 'rear seat' area of the 00 R here:
http://www.svtperformance.com/forums/co ... ost9909455

So here's the deal. Do I need to recreate the whole thing or should I just run without a rear seat? With a 3lb difference, I'll just bolt a 6"x6"x1/4" plate steel down there that weighs 3lbs and we can call it even. The weight differential will be even. I'll even bolt down 2 of them(one on each side) to even out the weight distribution.

[jerdeitzel]

Steve, my guess is that if it's not the actual factory piece it's not legal. You would have to contact the Solo folks about that.

Why? What's that weight going to do? Your better off getting a minimum weight passenger seat and lighter driver seat.

[mrevilracing]

1st, I can drop close to 40lbs, if I remember correctly.

2nd, under the Solo rules, 15.11:

15.11 OUT-OF-PRODUCTION CARS
Where a car is out of production and the manufacturer is either out of
business, stocks no parts or no longer has a required part, a part of any
origin but as similar as possible to the original may be substituted. The
entrant must be prepared to show documentary evidence that one of
the three circumstances above applies and that the substituted part is
as similar as possible under the circumstances. Substitute parts which
provide improvements in performance (e.g. superior gearing, lighter
weight, better camshaft profi le, etc.) are not permitted under this allowance.

So, I could make a delete or buy one, as long as it weighs the same or is heavier. In past Solo rules, it specifically stated that strut tower braces could only be 2pt. Well, Ford made a 3pt that went into some convertibles, which made it a LEGAL item to be used or substituted(as close as possible if out of production). I have an email from Solo Tech about it and the allowance, as well as the statement from the Ford dealer of the part being 'not available' anymore. AND, I have the schematic from Ford of the actual part used.
You KNOW I'm gonna do the same with this. No back seat was a flag at a past race. Little did I know that I didn't HAVE to have one. Now that it has been brought up as an issue, I did some more research and the back seat is coming out again as soon as I get verification from the Cobra R guys on the original literature and take it to SCCA Solo Tech.

I am glad it was brought up because I had been procrastinating on looking into that back seat and this gets me motivated to do something.

[NJ 03Mach1]

38lbs our backseat and all brackets weigh. I can run out and verify it again if need be, as mine is out of the car sitting in the garage.

The 2000 Cobra R indeed, had NO back seat. This also covers any mustang from 79-95 as there was a Cobra "R" in 93, and again in 95, both with rear seat deletes FROM the factory.

"This model was designed to be a race ready high performance vehicle in a perfectly street legal package; however it lacked many of the comforts the base production line Cobra enjoyed. This model had no radio/audio equipment, no air conditioning, and no rear seat.

Sourced from; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Mustang_SVT_Cobra

From what I've been told (I know, need concrete proof), 2000 "R" came with a simple carpet to cover the removed seat area that was optional to the owner to be installed. But it DID come with it. If you contact Ford, the part is no longer available and they refer you to an aftermarket company that makes a similar one. At least my dealer did...

I also have calls out to a few different people that can verify this both with picture and literature. Just waiting on them to get back to me...

I may not race this season, but I still follow along

[mrevilracing]

The one issue that keeps coming , and came up with these guys as well, are the Street Prepared classes that we run. Their cars are both prepared to BSP specs except for the fact that they don't have back seats.

I should have asked earlier but, what cars are they running?

[NJ 03Mach1]

What will be the required paperwork needed to prove the Rear Seat Delete is legal for ESP?

I'm currently in contact with the assistant program mgr of the 00R and he also worked on all 3 Cobra R models. He is digging through paperwork trying to find all the exact part #'s and the suppliers that made them for Ford..

Hope he comes through for ya Steve!

[Rick Kase]

Probably the best way is to have the production (build sheet) showing the configuration of your car.
Or a list from the manufacturer giving the production stats referenced to a list if VIN numbers on which your car is included.
If you cannot show YOUR car was made without the seat if will need same.

Rick Kase

[mrevilracing]

No big deal in ESP anymore. With these cars on the same line:
Solo rule book page 178 - Mustang (SN95 chassis, NOC including Cobra & Cobra R) (1994-2004)
there won't be any questions of '94-'04 mustangs without back seats. It's a legal mod to remove it. Both the '95 and '00 cobra Rs came without it from the factory.

These cars also came without A/C or stereo. Sound deadening material was also emitted. The bummer is that you can't buy the motor. It was custom built by a bunch of different companies and the intake manifold was hand made. The car was street legal but it wasn't sold to anyone unless they had a competition license. There were, however, collectors that went and got a competition license just to get their hands on one.

Mustang, SVO, Cobra, Cobra R (1979-93) & Capri (1979-86) (4-cyl Turbo, V6, & V8) All of these mustangs can also run without back seats in ESP. The cobra R produced in '93 didn't have a back seat either.