Jefferson

[mrevilracing]

We'll be MIA at Jefferson so I wanted to wish everyone good luck down there this weekend. I hope the weather is perfect for making hp!

[Rich Rock]

I was very surprised by the lack of enthusiasm shown for the idea (presented by Matt Rowe at the Sunday drivers meeting) to change the Jefferson format to allow several cars on track at the same time with limited passing!

Rich Rock

[mrevilracing]

Sorry we missed the event. However, Matt, the above idea posted by Rich is an EXCELLENT idea. I don't understand why there wouldn't be enthusiasm regarding limited passing. I would assume that the lap you passed on wouldn't count if you caught the car in a corner and had to wait to pass.

[FV95]

Just thought: I was once on the Jefferson circuit on the rear bumper of an MGB (me in FV), I had much faster cornering speed, but did not have the oomph to pass ( if it was allowed at the time). As I politely followed, I did the Walter Mitty bit pretending I was road racing and searching for a place to pass. My conclusion at the time was that Jefferson is a bit too narrow for passing in the corners, especially a formula car vs. a door slammer. Now, with passing limited to the straights, all I can say is that without the HP to blow by an MGB on a straight away, and having to coast through the turns, my times would be hampered. As I recall, my lap times were faster than that MGB at the end of the day.
On the other had, if we were on the big track, and kept formula cars separate from the others, and the FM, FA,FC, S2 crowd did not mind closing on a lowly Vee with a differential speed of perhaps 40 mph+ , maybe we could do that. I just spent a day in April on the Roebling track (wide and VERY fast) with 19 formula cars, and I was the only FV. It was NOT enjoyable, as I spent more time in the mirrors than thinking about my line.
Just my 2 cents.

[Matt Rowe]

Sorry we missed the event. However, Matt, the above idea posted by Rich is an EXCELLENT idea. I don't understand why there wouldn't be enthusiasm regarding limited passing. I would assume that the lap you passed on wouldn't count if you caught the car in a corner and had to wait to pass.

Well, I was the one to bring up the idea based on previous discussions and questions about why we haven't considered alternate formats. The questions I asked was would people be willing to either rent (for $20-25) a transponder to allow us to consider alternate formats. Either:

A) All sessions held in which passing would be limited to specified zones. Cars would be placed out on track in groups of 8-10 (grouped by similar car type and speed). Times would be recorded for all laps, best time of the weekend is kept but no allowances can be given for time lost either passing, being passed or stuck behind another car.

B) Similar to above but with 3/4 of the event designated as practice sessions as above. One set of 3 timed laps to be held at the end of the event.

As Rich alluded to, when the question was asked, out of 70 drivers at the event, I saw only 1 hand raised in support.

Most of the concerns I heard from people (primarily after the drivers meeting) were about the difficulty/unlikelihood in getting a clean lap under the new format.

[mrevilracing]

Matt - your idea almost sounds like a morphed advanced group PDX for instructors. I kind of like it and would certainly like to try it out. However, there are many folks who have never driven next to someone at speed, whether on the street or on a track and this may intimidate some. Jefferson is pretty tight. Maybe this gets tried with some?

Love the transponder thing. $20-25 is a minimal cost.

[Dave Cutchins]

John,

I agree. It would be hard to allow limited passing on the Jefferson Circuit and not have problems with getting a clean lap. I like the idea and maybe doing it on the Shenandoah Circuit would make it workable. I know the Shenandoah Circuit rental is higher, but I don't think a small increase in registration fees would deter people from wanting to get more track time on a longer and much more technical course. I know that the Shenandoah Circuit has an AMB timing loop embedded in the track and also has much better facilities. Using transponders would take a big work load off of event officials and the software would allow you to have results by class and/or run group posted within minutes of the session ending.
The Southeast Division runs all of their flat track events with designated passing zones and 15-20 minute sessions. They do a good job grouping cars by performance and within those groups sending the cars out in the session lined up according to time. Any lost time within the session due to a breakdown or off track excursion is charged to the session and does not delay the next session and run group from taking to the track. This allows everyone to know when they are due on grid. If you are not there, the clock is still running. It is easy to get 2-hours of seat time over a weekend. That is , if you have the stamina.

[Mary Anne Fieux]

Matt's idea sounds like fun! Even in a 2-stroke SAAB. There would have been 2 more hands in the air if we were able to get down there.

I did DOP down at VIR in the SAAB. (They combined the track orientation with the newbie DOP, due to there being only one driver in the DOP.......) The SAAB was on course with a TVR, McKee Formula 5000, a couple of Porsche 914-6's, etc. Talk about running with the big cats! MEWOW! They would all be zipping by the SAAB, wooooooooweeeeee, couldn't get my paw out fast enough to point some of them by! And yes, I know VIR is alot wider than Jefferson.

Enough of that BS. Perhaps with a little more discussion and additional ideas, this could work for Labor Day? Grouping of cars is obviously important.

So, let's hear the stories about the weekend! Looked like the weather was good, how was the driving????

[gdh57]

As Rich alluded to, when the question was asked, out of 70 drivers at the event, I saw only 1 hand raised in support.

Most of the concerns I heard from people (primarily after the drivers meeting) were about the difficulty/unlikelihood in getting a clean lap under the new format.

I like both formats, and would not be upset if a change was or was not made.

however, when you posed the question it was not clear (at least to me) that you were asking for a response right then and there. I thought you were asking us to think about it and that you would be taking a poll later. Also, from the back of the room where I was standing, I counted a lot more than one raised hand my own included (which could probably not be seen above the tall person in front of me). I can't give you an exact number -- yes, it was less than half of the people present, but a lot more than one.

If you wanted to eliminate the problems of not getting a clean timed lap, don't count any of the times in the "practice" sessions. The DC region one-day time trials event I attended last fall was organized this way -- the practice sessions were timed mainly for the purpose of testing the transponder but the only times that counted were the ones on the timed lapped sessions at the end where no passing was allowed. We were given 2 sets of 3 timed laps after 2 or 3 sets of 20-minute practice sessions where passing was allowed with a point by.

Assuming it was possible to use this format with the number of entries the PHA events attract, you could give practice "untimed" sessions both days, and end the day with a set of timed laps. Or practice sessions one day and timed laps the next.

I had the impression that the cost of the transponder was more of a problem to most people.

Grace

[Mwilson]

If you are interested in running with a bunch of cars, get a Road Racing ticket and go Road Racing. If you think that the pissing and moaning over sound, car classing, and teams was bad in 2009, put 10 drivers on the track at one time and watch a real Pissing contest . Second, I certainly don't want to be on the track with a few of our "cowboys" with an ego a mile long who think they are Mario Andretti. My car gets banged up with just me on the track I have myself to blame. But if I'm on the track with a bunch of people and someone makes a mistake and hits my car who do I see about the cost to fix it? The current Records at Jefferson are based on one driver on the track running his/her best time. And some of us are trying hard to break some of those existing records with the format that has been in place in the past which is one driver against the clock with NO distractions. If I'm running for a record or a personal best time I want the outcome to be determined by my performance on the track and mine alone. Some of us have cars that can only run one or two laps at the most because of overheating. So why would I and others pay a entry fee for 3/4 of practice sessions that we cant participate in and then just run 3 timed runs at the end of the event? Our cars were built not to go road racing with a bunch of other people but to compete as a Solo Car or a Hill Climb car and to run as a Hill Climb car. Are we to be banished from participating? If people are interested in running with more than one car on the track there are many organizations and events that have this format go run with them. Nascar and Indy qualify for starting positions based on one car on the track to record their fastest time. We have always decided our class championships by one car running in a specific class to determine his/her fastest time for each event. The only reason I can see for running more than one car on the track is to satisfy one's ego to say that he/she passed Joe Blow and then to brag about it for the next few weeks. SCCA has different classes for all racers. They have Road Racing for those that choose to run competitive with other cars, they have Autocross, Rally, PDX etc. and Hill Climbing which is one driver, one car on course, competing for the fastest time in his/her class. Pick one!

[dspgti]

It's all about seat time.
My son and I started in this type of format over 20 years ago with the Audi Quattro Club, then went to EMRA before running with PHA.
It all came back clear to me last weekend at Jefferson. It has been 5 or 6 years since I ran there in the clockwise direction. I was trying to learn the track all over again. Sure, I didn't run untill Sunday, but I didn't have near enough time to learn the line again. It takes about 30 to 40 laps to do that (at least in my case it does). I may have set a new class record but I had my sites set at running a faster time. I just couldn't get there with 3 laps at a time.
As far as posting your best time running with other cars? I have never set my best lap time running alone. Following someone in front of me who is faster and knows the line is the greatest teacher. Trying to catch the fast ones is what sharpens your skills. Sometimes I have to wait and be lapped by the group leaders to learn the fast line.
Oh, I have been there. The guy in the Corvette who blasts past you on the straight only to hold you up in the turns. The well trained track day specialist who knows the perfect line and won't move out of it. It's all part of the process. It doesn't matter. What matters is experimenting with different driving lines, watching the driver in front of you. Maybe you will learn something of what to do or not to do. Have a coach. Play follow the leader.
My thoughts on the format is: Open lap times with limited controlled passing. Transponders would be used just to group similar lap times of each session. At least one or maybe two individual timed runs of 3 laps at the end of each day.
I have yet to find someone who hasn't actually run a PDX or HPDE format and not gotten a blast from it. Ask Rich Rock or Keith Gerhart.

Dave Y

This is it. It's the last I got to say about the subject. The overwhelming majority is against it. I have tried to put to rest some wives tales about the format. If this is where you all want to stay, I have no problem with that. I for one will continue to do what I have fun with. I'm sure you all will do the same.

[Mwilson]

Dave you fail to realize that there are some of us that have built strictly Hill Climb cars. They are designed to go 1 or two miles before they start over heating. How are we supposed to run two or three 20 minute sessions? It is obvious to me that you prefer PDX and Road Racing over Hill Climbing based on your attendance at the Hills and that's your decision to make. You make it sound like because you and your son run PDX and Road Race we all must follow. I chose to build a hill climbing car to be competitive on the hills not to run PDX or not to Road Race. That was my decision. If this format that is proposed goes into effect myself and others will have two less events to participate in. And by the way I am not nearly as good a driver as you are but when I run Jefferson it certainly doesn't take me 30 or 40 laps to determine what line I am going to run. By Saturday after 5 or 6 laps I certainly know where my line is going to be. And by Sunday I may alter it slightly after 2 or 3 laps. I am happy to see if we stay with the current format that you have no problems with that. That somehow will make me sleep better tonight!

[Sue Salsburg]

I have to agree with Morg on this one & I don't even run the flat events. I've done a lot of SCCA & vintage roadracing & it was fun in some ways. I did enjoy playing with other cars: the MGA would get passed on the straight( 4 gears vs 5) & then I'd get by on the next corner. That said, I wouldn't trade all the wheel-to-wheel for one perfect slide past the Pagoda to floor it for the ballfield. There is something very Zen about the intense concentration of just you, your car & the mountain. I don't get that rush at a track - usually can't wait for the checker. I want to enjoy the moment with my silly old Jag & not be distracted by other cars. I f I crash, I'll have to deal with it but, it someone were to tee-bone Gracie, David would be looking for bail money. I'd much prefer we found a few more hills & got rid of Jefferson. If you want to run around in circles, go road racing or run the PDX. There are plenty of venues for that & the hills are too precious to lose.

[dspgti]

Hey Morg,
It's good to see you back in the mix again. I'm glad to hear you will be sleeping better at night. It takes some good drugs for me to sleep better.

I agree with everything that you all have said. It was just about getting more people interested and appealing to a wider group of drivers was the goal. Track Trials, PDX's, HPDE's and such have been growing in large numbers while our growth has been moderate. Getting a track driver to come to a hillclimb is easier than getting a hillclimber interested in a track event. But maybe we don't want to see more coming out. After all, the more drivers, the less runs we get. That is a slippery slope. Look at the picture on the web site. Unless we keep new blood coming in, we will die off one by one.

Dave Y

[neonracer193]

Track events and hillclimbs are different and unique to themselves. I love both for different reasons. As i missed Jeffererson this is the first i am hearing of the idea I think it is great. I think either format would work and i really wouldnt care which one would be implemented. As for the racers with the purpose built hillclimb cars, what would stop them from going out and doing their three or four laps until they start to overheat, and simply pull back into the pits as the rest of the run group keeps racing for 15 more minutes. Most of the purpose built cars are in the top 10% of the times so we put them in the front of the run group so they get their three runs with minimal passing required and to them its like the format never changed and for the rest of us we get more bang for our buck!!

I vote yes.

[mckee]

I vintage road race and consider it a busman's holiday. I relax and have fun. Hill climbs for me are serious business, full of violence and demanding driving. 3/4 minute at Giant's wears me out much more than 30 minutes on a road course where I only have to drive as fast as the traffic around me, or whomever I'm running with. SCCA club racing can be a different story where you and your car are always in danger from other cars that may or may not be well driven.

VSCCA holds both road and hill climb events. They are lucky to get 25 cars at a hill climb while several hundred consistently turn out for road races.

I have asked many road racers to try hill climbing but they think we are crazy. The few that have tried it have decided it was too dangerous and that the limited seat time was not worth the higher degree of risk. NEHA is full of ex-oval racers but the ex-road racers are few and far between.

I guess I prefer to have a minute's seat time going as wild as I dare than to spend a quarter of an hour following someone around waiting for the opportunity to pass. I have no patience for 'blockers' and vintage organizations take a dim view of anyone who would risk a couple of heirlooms to make a reckless pass. My prefernce for hill climbing avoids that particular frustration. I can learn most road courses in an afternoon but after nine years at Weatherly I am still trying to figure it out.

I would be happy with either format at Jefferson as I think being on track with hill climbers would present little threat or frustration. My last time at Jefferson I had to stop running as I was getting in everyone's way trying to maintain oil pressure with an uncooperative wet sump. A passing format would have kept me in the competition.

Hope to see you all as I continue my education at Weatherly,

Bob D

[Fprodget]

Track events and hillclimbs are different and unique to themselves. I love both for different reasons. As i missed Jeffererson this is the first i am hearing of the idea I think it is great. I think either format would work and i really wouldnt care which one would be implemented. As for the racers with the purpose built hillclimb cars, what would stop them from going out and doing their three or four laps until they start to overheat, and simply pull back into the pits as the rest of the run group keeps racing for 15 more minutes. Most of the purpose built cars are in the top 10% of the times so we put them in the front of the run group so they get their three runs with minimal passing required and to them its like the format never changed and for the rest of us we get more bang for our buck!!

I vote yes.

I agree with Neonracer.....

I am very new to the group here and and was coming to Jefferson, but a clutch failure in an autocross a coule of weeks ago postponed my debut.... Parts are here and I now plan to run Pagoda ..

[Mary Anne Fieux]

So, let's hear the stories about the weekend! Looked like the weather was good, how was the driving????

So.....does anyone have anything to say about the weekend other than the proposed "option". If I was down there, I'd be happy to run either option. I'd just be happy to run.

So.....let's hear about the cars! Who was FTD? How were the parties? Did anyone pull a "Dusty" on the big double apex corner? Do tell.......

[mrevilracing]

I certainly don't want to be on the track with a few of our "cowboys" with an ego a mile long who think they are Mario Andretti. My car gets banged up with just me on the track I have myself to blame.

That is an awesome comment!!!! Now I want a cowboy hat!

Although I like the passing thing, Morg is bringing up a good point that our times are based off of NO distractions. But I am torn with the fact that it is possible to catch up to another car. I think this would be a great discussion topic at Weatherly.

[Matt Green]

OK, you guys are lucky. I had a patented Matt Green Response (TM) all typed up, then lost it. You get the quick version.

On the Shenandoah issue- It costs over $6000 MORE to rent that circuit for the weekend versus Jefferson. Divide that among 75 drivers, add in the transponder rental cost, and suddenly a Time Trial event there costs $250 per entrant. Still interested?

As far as Jefferson, here's a quick summary.

Groups could be no larger than 10-12 cars, due to track length. Also, try finding more cars than that that are close enough is lap time so that catch-ups are CONSTANTLY a problem. Figure all the cars in the group need to be within a lap time window of .25-.35 seconds. That figures to be a minimum of 6-7 groups, needing 2-3 hours to complete one cycle through. This means probably only 2 sessions per day, allowing for incidents (even with a perfect day, it would be VERY difficult to get 3 sets). What if it rains one day?

The carousel section takes up half a lap, meaning that if you may have to wait 1/2 lap to even GET TO a passing zone. Oh, and when you get there, one of them (the first one after the carousel in either direction) is preceded by a very slow turn, creating all sorts of issues for people who are not experienced at passing. Oh, and those zones are also short and narrow. And remember how you're grouped with similar speed cars? Unless someone literally pulls over and gives you the pass, it's going to be difficult to complete safely.

What about those cars that can't run for 20 minutes? Our current format is in place partially because these events are part of a *series*. This format allows drivers to run cars with few or no changes from the other events in the series. If the Jefferson event(s) change format, will they no longer be part of the series? If we change and attract new people that only run Jefferson, how does that affect the series drivers? Also, when you think about cars that have limited time, don't just think about the engines. What about tires? Do you sacrifice the quick-heating sticky compound for the hills, or destroy those tires in one or two sessions, or buy more than one set? And brakes? In a longer session, you *will* need different brake pads. Plan on $120-150 a set if you don't already have them...

Sorry to come off sounding negative, but that comes from shortening my response. I do think it's *possible* to run this format, and personally, I think we could possibly pull it off, and some people would get a lot out of it. Given though that this is a series, I think that the benefits to a few of us would be far outweighed by the negatives for others, and the risks of things we haven't even thought of...

And yes, this truly was the shorter version.