Hill / Class Records

[dspgti]

Hello, My name is Dave Yeager, and I have an addiction!

Anyone familiar with a 12 step recovery program, your response should be, "Hello Dave". That is assuming you share in my addiction. Otherwise, if you don't understand, move on to another subject.

Dan happened to bring up the subject of my facination with "hill" and "class" records (meaning road courses as well). I am not a statistitian (I can't figure out how to spell it)by nature, but I do pay attention to what is going on around me when it pertains to measuring the performance of those involved with similar activities. Another words, how do "I" measure up. If you don't comprehend this concept, "What the hell are you doing here"?

Now, let me put this into my perception. SCCA has a habit of "shuffling the deck" every so many years. On the extreme side, I have a facination to a 1975 VW Scirocco that won the Trans Am Championship for the under 2 Litre class in '75. If any of you are familair with Trans Am in the 70's, that was pretty radical. I am working on building a replica and today the exact car would be classified as a G/Production entry in SCCA. Pretty mundane by todays standards.

In 1995, my co driver and I entred SCCA SOLO I Hillclimbes in a 1984 VW Rabbit GTI. The hot class at that time was DSP (D Street Prepared). We had 12 Entries in our class at Duryea that year. I was pretty proud to finish in second place but it took me a while to compare my performance to the existing class record. I was 10 seconds slower. Over the years, entries dwindled and after awhile the only measurement of performance was the class record. It was my co-driver that finally started setting the class records. After a couple years, the two of us had all the DSP records (except Duryea) in the PHA series (two exist to this day). After that we modified the engine and moved on to E/Production. Again we established all new class records (except one) and two still stand today. Fate would have it that the E/P engine blew up (results of my hard crash at Weatherly the year before) and when we got got back to Street Prepared with the old motor freshed up, SCCA reclassified the same Rabbit to FSP and we got all the records (except Duryea). Also,the same Rabbit was reclassified with the same specs from E/P to F/P (a slower class for those not familiar).

So you ask, "what is the point of this pompous ass?" If you have no one to run against in your class, the current class record is a good measurement. But, what is the real significance of the current class record? Are the measurements really equal? Setting goals and acheiving our objectives are personal accomplishments. We should not think for a second that it makes us better than the last guy. The rules may not have been the same.

On the other hand, look at what is happening in an area of uncontrolled development. I am trying to put this into a different perspective. I think it was the 1997 results that showed Ron "Sammy" Moreck came out with his Winged, Renard, Twin Rotary, Turbo, Formula car, Hillclimb Special. He ran a 116 something or other at Duryea. It was a Specials Class Record but far off the "hill" record. It wasn't that long ago but I know many of you on the forum do not not know who I'm talking about. Sammy went on to set many "Hill Records" and a few still stand today.

Did you get my point? Sammy Moreck, 116 sec. in the "00" at Duryea? Compare that to Jeremy in Street Mod setting a class record at 116 something or other in a "Street" car?

I did not intend this to be another thread to discuss Rollcages or Novice orientation. Let's not bring that here. I just wanted to put into perspective what a lot of the veternas take for granted and many of our current competitors haven't been around long enough to understand.

I hope that my comments don't detract from the significance of George Bowland's record setting performace at Duryea this year. No driver/constructor is more befitting the UNDISPUTED title of the Fastest Person to EVER Ascend "Duryea Drive".

I think that has more historic significance than the first Black President (even if George had to pay off a bet).

Dave Y.

[dspgti]

I got an email recommending a little clarrification. It sounded like my Rabbit example was the only car affected.

I meant to point out all or most cars get reclassified at one time or another . Most CSP cars went to DSP, DSP to FSP etc. In Production E went to F etc. and different prep levels were created. GT got mixed up, GT4 and 5 turned into GTL etc. etc. Historic and Vintage are always changing because they are age driven. Technology improves, tires get better, manufacturers release better and more advanced models, many incorporating designs proven in racing.

Even Hill Records have had their share of disputes and affected by rule changes. Allowing Methanol is an example. Some records have been under a cloud of authentisity.

Only George Boland can say "I am the fastest man that ever lived and raced in Reading, PA". The rest of us can scrap it out in our own little domains.

Dave Y

[jerdeitzel]

Hey someone has to entertain us over the off season. . So since i'm in this statement i guess i should comment. First off do i feel i'm better then the last guy? Heck no, I't can't even be compared. You have too take so many things into account if you really want to compare. You need the right car for the class and prep it correctly. This is the issue with Auto-x pax also. It dosnt work if your not fully prepped for your class. SO, to really kno "how" you compare is kinda apples too oranges. Then there are the class changes as you have said. That makes it even more difficult. For example, I could've run BSP pretty easily with my car, and would have crushed most of the old record. Does that make me awsome. NO. Just the right car for the class. Now don't get me wrong. Records are records no matter how you cut it. You might even see your name still on records in years to come to show your children if you set a good one. So lets give the credit too those that have records, they did still earn them! No matter if they are (strong) records or not.

Now the way i see it is this is a TT. The fastest person wins no matter what class! And that my friends is The KING himself. Mr Bowland.

Now what do records tell me? Well i'm the 10th fastest person ever up Duryea. Pretty sure the only street car to ever even break 2 min. Probably the fastest 4 door now. Sorry Bill! . Etc, etc. Those record are not written down anywhere tho, so do they mean anything too anyone?. ME and that about it. Now that dosn't mean i think i'm great. But, those are the only benchmarks i have to compare against and so thats what i shoot for. Now i really believe someone could pretty easily bring a much faster AWD car to the hills and crush everyone of my records.

There is alot more i could say about records and car classing and prep but i hope you got the jist of it. Everyone should enjoy there moment in the sun when they can. You never kno when someone is going to come along and beat you down.

Oh and i'm not exactly sure i "got" your point but. I tried to understand what you were saying. We could go to places we shouldn't on this subject also tho.

[jerdeitzel]

So i tried to read and understand what it was you are saying again. I think your part about using the records to see where you stand, Is pretty acurate. Altho i kinda believe that its better to just pick out people that are usually close to you and try to compete against them. It really dosn't matter what class your in, because like you said there are many variable to the records. But, you can have some good battles between different classes. And compition makes us all faster. I kno myself and i believe Bill M. will agree that we would have never gone a 116 without each other there to push ourselves. And i'll bet Kurt wouldn't have gone 115 if he didn't think i had hit it myself. . It makes for some fun battles for myself to run against these guys.

So here is a question. What is better, to have a class championship or a record? IYO

[dspgti]

What is better, to have a class championship or a record? IYO

Well, Jeremy, you are getting close to where I'm going with this thread. Part of it is to get feedback on how others feel about records and such and educate others on the significance, or lack of.

My other reason involves awarding points, like in the team challenge (don't know if it will offered next year) and a porposal that I would like to present to the membership at one of our meetings. My opinion is that points should not be awarded for setting a class record because of the flux factor. Class reorganization, new class formations and new race tracks would create windfalls to certain competitors.

Having points awarded on an overall new "Hill Record", might be a different story. That might be significant enough to carry some weight.

Just thinking out load,
Dave Y

[Rich Sweigart]

Dave,

If we have 3 teams sign up in 09 as per the team championship rules, then we will have a team championship. I would like to point out, only the team championship scores points for class records.
The team championship scores 2 pts. for showing up and making 1 timed run, 1pt. for every car beaten in class, 2 pts. for class record, 1/2 pt. if, a driver showed up at every event.

Years ago, the original team championship was based off of the class championship. What ever total the the driver scored in his/her class was the amount that the driver scored for his/her team.

Class championships are based off of the 10 pts for 1st down to 1pt for 10th, wth event drops based on the number of events. While the number of events and drops has changed over the years this has been the system used since the start of the PHA.

Rich Sweigart
PHA points keeper

[dspgti]

Thanks Rich, excellent info inserted here. So give me your take on records being awarded points?

[dspgti]

You are right on the money Jeremy. Thanks for your rational inputs.

I have to make one possible clarrification. To claim the 10th fastest driver up Duryea, you are ignoring many, many drivers that came very close to records but never recorded. You are comparing your record time with current listed record times. There are literally hundreds of runs in the sub 2:00 minute catagory over the history of Duryea. You could lay claim to the fastest sedan to ever run the hill but that would take some verification.

Dave Y

[dspgti]

This may be splitting hairs since a VW Scirocco is classified as a 2dr coupe but still a "door slammer" so to speak. Dan Rutan won FTD at 111 something in said car. Okay, okay, he had an Audi Quattro drive line and a NASCAR Grand National V6 under the hood, but still a door slammer, right?

Damn, I should have bought that car!
Dave Y.

[jerdeitzel]

You are right on the money Jeremy. Thanks for your rational inputs.

I have to make one possible clarrification. To claim the 10th fastest driver up Duryea, you are ignoring many, many drivers that came very close to records but never recorded. You are comparing your record time with current listed record times. There are literally hundreds of runs in the sub 2:00 minute catagory over the history of Duryea. You could lay claim to the fastest sedan to ever run the hill but that would take some verification.

Dave Y

Good point, i never thought about that. Oh well. So i can say 10th fastest on record. lol. Like i said it dosn't really matter to me! My look on how i drove is how close to uncomfortable was i. And i'm not afraid to admit once i hit that i'm done with trying to go any faster! If there are people out there that want to go faster. GO right ahead. Oh and the VW, did he drive the car there?

I just want to go as fast as i can and have fun! All else is just numbers.

[Rich Sweigart]

Dave,

You want my take of records scoring points towards the team championship. The only driver that I have seen use records to a great degree towards the team championship has been Mike Ancas; otherwise, most success has been the team that has shown up event after event with drivers in classes that have a couple or more cars in them and at the end of the season they cash in on bonus points for running the whole season.


Rich

[dspgti]

So Rich, what you are saying, is that there are those that can identify an advantage and use it to their full potential? Sounds like F1 or NASCAR to me.

Just trying to keep the playing field equal,
Dave Y

[mrevilracing]

Hello Dave.

I share this addiction with you, however, am not familiar with any 12 point recovery program. Chasing records and winning is the reason I am here.

[dspgti]

I hope I don't offend anyone here, but the 12 steps refer to Addiction Recovery Programs. If you went to an AA (Alcoholics Anonymous) meeting, you would introduce yourself and say "I'm an Alcoholic" identifying you as one of the group. Step 1 was admitting you have a problem are are powerless to beat it on your own.
If there was such a recovery program for Go Fast Addicts, only half of us would admit to it, the other half in are in total denial and no one would ever get past Step ONE.

Again, I hope I'm not offending anyone in real recovery,
Dave Y.

[mrevilracing]

OK OK. I'm a go fast addict and I have no desire to get treatment. My addiction stays on the race track so I don't feel I NEED treatment. As a matter of fact....I WANNA GO FASTER!!!! I watch my in-car camera runs a lot to learn. I watch other's in-car camera runs to see if I can possibly learn from them. I talk to people on the hill to hopefully give me other viewpoints to assist me in going faster. So, in essence, you ALL are contributing to my addiction. THANK YOU!!!!

If you're offending anyone, they are in denial.

[dspgti]

I saw the triats in you some time ago. It becomes clear when you look at the attitude of the driver as you retrieve his race car imbedded into a tree, rock or guard rail. There are some defining moments as to where do we go from here? Walk away, count your blessings, lick your wounds, explain to the significant other that what you are doing is important (that's the toughest part).

You admit you have an addiction and you have no intentions to do anything but satisfy the desire in you to go faster. Welcome to the club!

Anyone else want to make a confession?
Dave Y

Did we deviate from the intent of the tread here?

[mrevilracing]

Stumbled across this list: http://www.pahillclimb.org/phpBB3/viewt ... ?f=2&t=867
I don't see any street cars listed there, Jeremy.

[dlascoskie]

Wanna have a really fun thread Dave? Have everyone list just these 5 simple things:

Class
Car Weight
Horsepower
Brake system
Suspension

This will give you some insight on record significance too.

[dspgti]

Not sure what you mean Dan?

I'm also not sure of the completeness of this list. The posting is 2006. I don't see Dan Rutans times at all. He made several runs all well under 2:00 including his FTD.

For very good reasons, SCCA never allowed or recognised Turbo or Super Chargers in any class but SOLO II (considered too tight to give boost a real advantage). A few creept into variuos special groups and because of that, classes like ITE were created to allow otherwise, unclassified cars, that had a distinct advantage, a place to run. Doe's anyone remember the Audi Turbo Quattro that was literally outlawed over 25 years ago for the "Unfair Advantage"?

In any case, we have a variety of variables. We are placed in groups that are broken down by Horsepower vs. Weight. After a number of years, usually 10, modifications are allowed and the car goes to a Touring or Improved Touring in club racing (I include this to mean Spec Classes like Miata, RX7 etc), or Street Prepared in SOLO II. All the while, unlimited development has been allowed in classes like GT (Corvettes, Panoz, Porsche) for brand new models. Once they all reach obsolesence, Production is the last palce to be. Production allows lots of modifications that have not been accepted in the past. Although Production is thought to a pretty liberal class, 2.0 is the largest displacement, no turbos have ever been allowed and all wheel drive is out of the question. It is simply a place to try to keep these out of date cars somewhat competitive by todays standards.

So the next thing is everyone is going to say....You mean I have to be compared to Merlin Miller? I'll gaurantee you that Merlin has to abide by rules that are far more restrictive than any Street Mod class rules. Formula classes as well. As an example, he has to use an original Sunbeam Tiger 260 CID intake. That's a carburator intake for you youngters. No fuel injection allowed here.


So you bring up the short list, class, weight etc.

NEED MORE INFO,
Dave Y

[dspgti]

Geez, I forgot to mention Vintage and Historic. Talk about moving down the food chain. How'd you like to run against a Gurney Eagle?