Homologation for Specials

[george bowland]

I was told at the Crow Mt. Hillclimb, by a road race Scrutineer, that my special had to be Homologated or at least receive a waiver from the SCCA Club Racing Manager to be legal. The rule he showed me was 10.1.2. It is not all that clear to me that he is right, since the rule is written rather ambiguously. Since there are more specials in the PHA than anywhere else, I thought maybe this issue had been discussed before.

[Rich Sweigart]

George,

Homologated for what class? There is no homologation for Specials, usually we follow the GCR cage rules for what type of car it is, formula, GT, sports racer, etc.. Homologation is for formula cars and sports racers only built after 1983 and the closest class to your car is Formula S; which you are not running in. Clearly, the RR scrutineer needs to read up on the TT and GCR rules. I have heard complaints from Fvee and Club FF drivers who own cars older than 1983, with tech people asking for homologation papers.


Rich

[george bowland]

I talked to John Bauer at SCCA yesterday and he seemed to think I had to be Homologated. The rule:
10.1.2
Except for composite chassis construction and Hillclimb Specials, homologation is waived for Time Trial events, provided the car meets roll-structure requirements as set forth in section 11 for the class of car. If the car does not meet roll-structure requirements as listed and is not homologated, a special exception must be obtained from the Club Racing Technical Services department at the SCCA National Office. If special permission is obtained, the driver MUST be in possession of a written copy, and present it upon request of an Official at any time during an event. A log Book shall not be sufficient proof of this exception, only a letter (or copy of the letter) showing the signature of a staff member of the SCCA National Office. Homologation requirements documentation can be obtained from the Club Racing Manager at the SCCA National Office.

Now I can see where the scrutineer might have read this to mean I needed homologation, and in fact John Bauer in the technical office basically agreed with the scrutineer after reading the rule himself. He offered to send me homologation documents, but I instead offered to send him pictures of the car, a history of it and a request for the exception letter outlined above. I guess we will have to wait and see how this comes out, but so far it looks like all specials are affected by this rule.
George

[Matt Rowe]

George, the way I read that is specials would require homolgation provided the roll cage does not visibly meet the appropriate cage rules. In your case although the car is a special it meets the roll cage rules (right?) and therefore a special exception is NOT required. Put simply if the cage is safe the car is allowed. This rule was put in place to allow national to approve composite chassis or alternate construction cages, not to require legal cage owners to jump through hoops. If we need to revisit or clarify this we can but I think it's clear.

[george bowland]

Matt,
I believe you are right, but there are at least two people that see it a bit differently. Yes, my roll cage meets section 18 (now 11) as have all my cars. I'll wait to see what Topeka's John Bauer has to say, and perhaps it will end there with a clarification.
Thanks for your input,
George

[Matt Rowe]

George,

Keep us up to speed on the outcome and let me know if you need any help.

[FC93]

George
If i remember correctly that was the biggest problem my father had with getting the march alowed to run in PHA, the fact that we have the carbon compoiste chassis with a intergrated roll bar that was not visable was holding us up, we where told though when we came down south to run at VIR that we where good to go. It seems that it all depends on who you talk to, since when it came back up north we where held up for months unitl we got the ok to run it.

[Matt Rowe]

The situation Dave and his Dad highlighted are the reason the rule is in the books to begin with.

[george bowland]

Here is the reply to my memo to the SCCA Technical Dept.
George

George,

Your car is going to require homologation. Unfortunately, this is the first car to ever apply for a Time Trials homologation, and a homologation packet does not exist at this time. I will put one together and send it to you ASAP.

Thanks!

John Bauer

[Matt Rowe]

George and I have talked and I will follow up with National on this and we will get the situation clarified.

[Joe Foering]

I think we have just opened Pandora's box...the 2007 TTR states on page 45 under Section 10.1.2 Homologation requirements that "Except for composite chassis construction and Hillclimb Specials, homologation is waived for Time Trials events..." I, as did National, read this to mean ALL Hillclimb Specials need to be homologated! Unless there is a blanket waiver for cars competing as Specials, cars like Bob Oswald's Karmann Ghia will need to be homologated! That's not me personally speaking, that's National speaking! Further, if you read page 43, Section 9.2.1 L-Seats, it states that, "Effective 1/1/08- for Level 3 and Level 4 events, the driver's seat shall be replaced with a one-piece bucket type race seat and include an upper brace if non-FIA". All cars? it doesn't say only certain cars, so we must read that ALL cars (let's not even get into interpreting N- passenger seat!). Also, page 45, Sec. 10.3.1 says "A standard SCCA Vehicle Logbook shall be used by all competitors at all Level 3 and Level 4 Time Trials competitions, unless exempted by the Supplementary Regulations." That means all cars must have logbooks! (we know not everyone did in '07)
The 2008 TTR needs to address these issues- homologation requirements and the driver's seat- among others before the 2008 season starts!

[Matt Rowe]

The seat issue and now the homologation issue are both on the hot list of items I am working to address before the 2008 TTR is released.

[mrevilracing]

Joe, I want to be sure of that seat rule. If I have to replace the factory seat in the Mach, I will do so. I'm sure it'll make the car lighter anyway. However, if it's not necessary....ie: The rule doesn't include ALL vehicles, then I won't due to cost restrictions. I know I'm off of George's topic, but since you mentioned it, I thought I'd ask.

The last thing I want to do is show up for the 1st race and during tech I'm told I can't run because my seat is out of compliance. When I prep'd this car for the SSCC, I installed the cage because I was worried I would drive 2600miles only to be turned away cause I didn't have a cage. Turns out I didn't need 1 in my class. I had emailed several people and they 'suggested' I have one. Now, I am glad I did it because I can't see running a hillclimb, like Pagoda/Duryea, at over 100mph, and NOT have a cage.

[Joe Foering]

Unfortunately, the way the rule reads now it DOES apply to ALL cars, but Matt Rowe stated earlier on this topic that this is a major issue he is trying to resolve (along with the homologation rule) before the '08 TTR are published. Let's hope that he can resolve the problem.

[mrevilracing]

Then I guess I gotta start shoppin for a new seat.

[Mwilson]

If you read Matts post it clearly says he is working on these two issues. DON'T ASSUME anything until you here from Matt. I'm quite sure when he gets to the bottom of both these issues he will indeed let all of us know. If anyone can get this sorted out he indeed will. Stay Tuned

[Joe Foering]

I agree with Morg. Let's wait and see what Matt Rowe can do...I'm really NOT looking forward to next years' tech inspections if these issues aren't eliminated (Note that in the GCR even the SHOWROOM STOCK cars are required to change their seat for CLUB RACING...it appears that, as was expected by some, we are slowly being made to conform to CLUB RACING'S safety rules, i.e. the seat...and next the cage...and next the belts every 2 years...and then fire systems...and so on...).

[SteveTC]

Matt,

I am copying what I sent to SCCA Time Trial Chair for some board opinions:

Is there any update on the seat situation? I just looked at the January Master Tech Bulletin and it is not addressed. I just got in a Kirkey Intermediate Road Race seat, and with the addition of "SFI minimum", then it appears that Kirkey seats will not be legal. This could be quite a situation, as they are used in many road racing circuits and vehicles and have long been considered to be a premium racing seat. If no progress on this rule, then I am going to have to return it I guess. The most reasonable SFI seat I found was around $700. This Kirkey was still over $450 with the cover. What about Formula Cars with integrated seats and Independent headrests? The GCR wording on seats is diferent that the TTR version, so even a GCR car cannot meet the TTR specs with the FIA inclusion.

Interestingly,
According to the Time Trial Rules as follow, the GCR classes do not mention having to meet the safety equipment as do Solo and Specials, so if a car is built to GCR, the seat rule would not apply?

The Time Trials program shall use a class structure which will maximize participation potential and enhance local competition. This allows each local series to tailor its classes to suit, so long as the following minimum requirements are met:

• All classes listed in the current GCR (both National and Regional, i.e. all classes listed in GCR 9.1.1 through 9.1.10.) must be accommodated. This rule is to allow a place to compete for any car prepared to a GCR class but does not restrict classes from being consolidated because of limited participation.

• It is strongly suggested that the Solo 2 Street Prepared and Street Mod class cars are accommodated, provided that they have the required Time Trials safety equipment.

• SCCA Vintage-legal cars will also be eligible for Time Trials. These cars may be prepared to current SCCA Vintage rules, and the burden of proof of legality shall fall to the competitor.

• Other classes may be adopted locally as needed, so long as safety requirements are met. These classes may include Specials, Rally, Legends, or other classes. All such classes will be listed in the Supplemental Regulations for the series or event.


On the Homologation issue, as I am building an A-MOD Formula Special Car, and according to GCR, even though it is a regional only car, it does require Homologation as it is built to those rules. I would think that the GCR class rules would dictate that I would need to have Homologation unless I signed up as a 'Special', though I don't think PHA has FS clas, so I would be grouped in with specials anyway? Since I will not be running GCR type competition , only A-Mod Solo and Hill Climbs/Level 3 Events, will I need the letter or Homologation?

I am so confused!!!!!!!

[SteveTC]

Here is some follow up:

I spoke with Kevin Derochie at Kirkey Racing Seats about the situation.
They do not have an FIA seat, and stated that no US manufacturers do, as it is a European Standard.

The interesting thing is that he stated that there is no SFI certification for seats.
There is a committee looking at forming one for CIrcle track, but that is all.

Matt, can you contact me and I will give you his contact info if you want to discuss it with him directly.

Thanks,
Steve

[Joe Foering]

Steve, The 2008 TTR reads "It is highly recommended" not "you shall" replace the seat... Therefore, don't worry about the seat. This information was confirmed by John Bauer at National. The TTR are now available on the SCCA website. Unfortunately, the Homologation issue is still not resolved (meaning Specials need Homologation as of now), but John Bauer says the Time Trials Admin Council is working on it.