Question on engine work...

[NJ 03Mach1]

Will a P&P of my Heads and Intake move me from one class to the other??

How about a cam swap? Looking to swap either all four of them, or just the intake cams...using stock cams, just from another Ford production vehicle...

[Steve Tumolo]

The cam change you are talking about will bump you out of a Street Prep. class and into something like Street Mod. Port & Polish well,,, that can be pretty hard to detect if done rite .

Let me put it to you this way. Back when I was running Street Prep there was four or five of us running in the class. There were a few items in each of our cars that was a bit outside of the "rules" but we never protested each other about it.

It really comes down to the other people in your class. If each of you get together and agree on what is fair and not too far outside the box then go have fun. But, don't forget if someone new comes along and wants to protest and you are found to be illegal then that is on you.

[Mwilson]

Steve,
I understand what you are telling a newbe but should we really be saying "its ok to break the rules a little?" Where do we draw the line? Lets say there are 5 in the class that agree to stretch the rules a little. Now another person comes along and runs completely legal and constantly gets beat buy the other 5. What do we tell him? Now he makes modifications to his car and now there are 6 that have stretched the rules. Sooner or later the street prepared class is turned into a Special class all of its own. If we start altering the rules in all the classes we might as well group all the cars together and run them in one bunch.
In my opinion all the various classes were designed to try and level the playing field between various car styles and engine displacements. If you start going outside the parameters set forth in the GCR then we are defeating the purpose for the rules in general. This is the reason we have the Special Classes. Many of the cars that do not fit any other class are placed in Special 1, 2, or 3 based upon engine displacement and multipliers for turbo powered cars. This is the reason that Special 2 in my opinion is one of the largest and toughest classes in PHA events. Its a catch all for those cars that don't have any where else to go LEAGELY do to modifications of various forms. If you want to make the modifications then jump into one of the Special Classes, and be prepared for some really competitive competition. Its like the old saying goes, "You can't get a little bit pregnant." Either you want to stay in Street Prepared and abide by the rules or you want to jump into a Special Class. You can't have it both ways.
Tell me the last time you know that someone protested another driver for being illegal. It just doesn't happen. Why? Because all of the guys running are a close nit bunch of drivers. If someone would protest someone in their class he would be deffinitely on the outside looking in. We all trust that our competetors are loyal to the sport and are abidding by the rules. At least thats the way I hope it is.
Just my opinion and I hope I'm not the only one that feels and thinks this way.
And understand Steve this is not an attack on you whatsoever. I have great respect for you as I do for most of my fellow drivers. This subject has been on my mind for along time and you just gave me the opportunity to finally express the way I feel. Thank you for that.

[dspgti]

The last protest was a Duryea this year. There have been several near protests but they have been resolved quietly. Sticking to the rules is very important. I can't find the thread were we just had a similar coversation but an idea being discussed as a meeting topic is having someone assigned to inspect vehicles for class legal mods.
Play by the rules or don't play should be our moto.

Dave Y.

[Joe Foering]

As Chief Tech Inspector I have to say that we have neither the personnel nor time to inspect each vehicle for "class legal mods"...what mods? the ones we can see or the internal ones we can't?...historically, the members of a class "police" the class, and this has worked for most situations-as, I believe, Dave inferred by his reference to "near protests...been resolved quietly"...Steve presented a very pragmatic perspective of what can happen, and Morgan speaks from a position that I share.
I believe club racing impounds cars after an event to check the legality of the cars, but this is done by people who do just that-not by driver/volunteers who give up their own car prep time to tech other drivers cars-primarily for safety issues-so that all can compete at least safely-if not all within the rules.

[Matt Rowe]

Club racing also relies on the practice of the competitors policing themselves, with certain exceptions (SRF, SpecMiata). Their tech inspectors face the same challenges that a handful of inspectors can't know every trick about every make and model. And so the competitors that should know their class rule book and the cars inside and out (plus the advantage of on track observation) have the best perspective to know when to question a car.

So the competitors are best equipped and have the most incentive to question the legality of a car. However once the question has been raised it the officials obligation to resolve the issue. As much as gentleman's agreements with in a class may sound fine the classes are defined with rules to provide a level playing field. Otherwise, it turns into a matter of who wants to stretch things the farthest.

At that point we might as well all end up in S3 running against Darryl. I don't know about you but I don't have the budget for that, although it would save on trophies.

[NJ 03Mach1]

I'm familiar with the bending... I don't wish to do so. I personally know an NHRA record holder..who cheated his ass off and holds that record. No bragging rights there if ya ask me.. I won't mention what class, or what type of vehicle, so don't ask

I guess my best route, is to prep the car, how I want it, and where I end up, so be it!

I'm looking to have more fun then I am win..sure winning is great, but fun is more important..or so it should be...

[Matt Rowe]

I would strongly suggest you look at the class rules before you make any changes. There are some "normal" modifications you can that will bump you to a significantly faster class. Aside from being several seconds off the pace you may also find yourself with stiffer safety requirements.

The biggest thing is you don't want to be surprised, but it's also helpful to think of what you want to do with the car this year, next year and five years from now. It's very easy to end up sinking a lot of time and money bit by bit and then look back and wonder why you didn't get a different car or pick a different class.

[mrevilracing]

Will a P&P of my Heads and Intake move me from one class to the other??

How about a cam swap? Looking to swap either all four of them, or just the intake cams...using stock cams, just from another Ford production vehicle...

As you know, removing the heads or cams requires pulling the motor. VERY time consuming for the Mach. You can't even do headers without pulling the motor or at least dropping the K-member. I would stay with what you have. Since I'm not sure what mods you have currently, cams will need a CAI, headers and a dyno tune at a minimum, not to mention a free flowing exhaust(catback and H or X). I believe you'd be picking up 50hp or so. But depending upon what clutch you have in that car, if you start getting close to that 400hp mark and pushing it as hard as you need to on the hills, you can pretty much figure on putting another 1 in.

Tires, tires, tires. Hehe.

[Rich Rock]

If we start altering the rules in all the classes we might as well group all the cars together and run them in one bunch.

Tell me the last time you know that someone protested another driver for being illegal. It just doesn't happen. Why? Because all of the guys running are a close nit bunch of drivers. If someone would protest someone in their class he would be deffinitely on the outside looking in. We all trust that our competetors are loyal to the sport and are abidding by the rules. At least thats the way I hope it is.
Just my opinion and I hope I'm not the only one that feels and thinks this way.

Morgan,

Maybe I'm missing something here, please help me out. On one hand you argue in favor of everyone following the rules. Then you seem to to suggest that someone would be "punished" in some way for filing a protest?

I believe that a protest should be a last resort, filed only after all other efforts fail. As a PHA tech inspector and club officer, I say that it is not our policy to punish or harm in ANY way a driver who files a protest.

That's my personal opinion too. Every driver has a right to file a protest if they feel compelled to do so. No driver should have to fear any consequences for exercising that right.....right?

Rich Rock

[Steve Tumolo]

It really comes down to the other people in your class. If each of you get together and agree on what is fair and not too far outside the box then go have fun. But, don't forget if someone new comes along and wants to protest and you are found to be illegal then that is on you.

I know what you guys are saying and I agree totally. But things I have come up against in the past is a rule that stated that interior pieces can only be removed if the roll cage deemed it necessary. Well we had guys running with fully gutted cars.

I don't know about the rules now but it was a rule before that rear gears could ONLY be ones offered from the factory for the car you are running. That means for Mustangs the steepest gear we could LEGALLY run would have been 3.27's (because they were offered in the automatic cars). Well there was a certain driver who had access to ALOT of gears and such and he had set many records with different gear sets. This is the same guy who had a "Special" computer direct from Ford that was programmed and mapped just for him. He was a very popular guy and I never wanted to deal with any of the BS that would go along with being the one to blow the whistle. That is the reality of being a protester.

That is why I said to get together with the other drivers in your class and see what is not too far outside of the box. Flashing the computer for minimal gain, big deal. If you are running 4.11 gears and everyone else is only running 2.73's that could mean alot. If you know things are way illegal on your car and you win or set a record how empty is is that feeling? If you set a record with "cheater" parts and someone comes along all legit and breaks the record what would that say?

It is all just my opinion so it is meant to be taken with a grain of salt.

[Mwilson]

Rich,
I was referring to engine displacement and mechanical parts not legal for a particular class. There is a big difference between questioning another drivers wheels, tires etc. and coming to some agreement or lodging a formal protest. I do agree that if there is a question about tires, seats, things of that nature, they obviously can be worked out without the formal protest procedures. I agree with you on that point. My point was that if it appears that someone is running an illegal size engine or any other modifications to the engine or tran that are not able to be seen with a quick "look see," the only option if you are not sure is a formal protest. As close a family as PHA is, my point was that if anyone indeed filed a protest against one of their fellow drivers because they felt there were some shady things going on, he or she may find themselves on the outside looking in. I was no way insinuating that you or any other official would punish the person lodging the protest. Rich I can't believe that is what you thought I meant. I was referring to the other drivers or friends of the person being protested. I have seen this with my own eyes. Driver A makes a comment about Driver B's car and its legality. The comment made gets back to Driver B and now these two drivers are not talking. And that wasn't even a formal protest. Formal Protests do nothing but create friction and animosity among people and I for one will NEVER put myself in that position. If someone wants to stretch the rules to win and they feel comfortable with that, Fine with me. Steve says it well, "How empty is that feeling." I guess the point is that if everyone abides by the rules however dumb they may be, we will never have any problems. RIGHT?
Relax Rich, I was only stating my opinion and nothing more. I will still buy you a drink at the Banquet

[NJ 03Mach1]

Steve (mrevil), I'm looking @ a chance to get the cams, tuner & the other supporting mods with labor... damn near free.

My old boss is now a writer for Super Chevy magazine.. between that, and the connections he made @ MM&FF when he had did installs for them (Dannys Pro Performance in many issues) he's trying to get the install for me covered by the mag since they don't do many Mach's.

Right now I'm looking @ just "fresh" heads with FR500 cam kit and supporting mods.. Its still in the works and I'm hoping it comes through!!
Maybe work in setting up the car for a season of PHA hehe.

[Joe Foering]

Matt Rowe makes a good point; pick a class and really READ the rules for that class! Ask questions-as you have- about the legality of intended mods for the class you choose...e.g. you spoke of changing the rear to an IRS...depending on the class you choose, that may not be legal...it should be a fun season!

[NJ 03Mach1]

e.g. you spoke of changing the rear to an IRS...depending on the class you choose, that may not be legal...it should be a fun season!

That's already done...that was the first mod she got..almost a year now lol

Sorry if I boiled a pot that is normally just simmering..

[Rich Rock]

Morg,

I didn't think you thought a protester would be "punished" by an official. But I did want you to clarify your statement. Mostly for the benefit of people who might not have understood what you meant.

Now, will you please tell us all the groundhog story?

Rich Rock

[Joe Foering]

Morg, save it for the banquet; you should be able to parlay that story into a few drinks! Joe

[dspgti]

So lst's get back to the class thing. I'm no Mustang specialist but as I see it, ESP covers the Cobra Mustang as well as the Mach I. He has updated to the Cobra rear suspension and still legal for ESP. Even though he is at a disadvantage to a Cobra supercharger but same dispalcement he can't do the engine mods he is talking about. Do the mods and he is in Street Mod. No Brainer, right?

Dave Y.

[Joe Foering]

According to National, you can swap the rears as long as the cars are on the same "line" in the SOLO rules book (p172); the cams are a no-no unless you want to run STMOD. Pretty much a "no-brainer" as Dave said-if you read the rules...

[NJ 03Mach1]

Its still up in the air about the cams as to wether or not ill be getting them. IF I get them, I will be honest about them, and any future mods. if it moves me too SM, so be it. Ill still have fun!