PA Hillclimb

Rich, I am a little familiar with the history but I'd like to call on some more recent Meeting Minutes to clarrify the Rally restriction. I'll refer to it as the Parkin rule. Am I dillusional or do I remember a PHA meeting that brought the License issue up and made it a rule in the last 10-15 years or so? No matter, just want to point out is stuff has been going on for years. It is not a new issue.

Anybody have some supporting documents to back up what seems to be defective memories?

Dave Y

Let me clarrify a little further as to why I think we should get the explaination right so that the newcomers don't think we try to rule out any new hot shoe that shows up at hillclimbs. Eric Parkin jumped from DSP in a poorly prepared car to Rally because he had no chance at being competitive in DSP. His car was a mockery to Rally specifications but at most events he had no competition and finished 1st running against no one. I don't remember if he won the championship but it woke up some people as to what are we doing?

In FIA World Rally, the factory sponsored cars change the entire set up of their cars for asphalt stages. On the home front, Rally teams do not have the budgets to change the entire set up of their cars to run a hillclimb. The least we can do is accomodate their particular cars and make sure that "ringers" don't show up to mess up the mix.

Dave Y.

Dave,

I believe this rule has nothing to do with Mr. Parkin, I recall a road race car ran as a Rally car at a Jefferson event and blew the class wide open; but, does it really matter.

Rich

How about Formula First?

Whether Eric Parkin's car was a "mockery" or not, didn't he actually compete in some rallys? More than one, I believe. I've looked at several supps from diff. events last year and Rallye isn't mentioned in them.

Cant a rally car be any car, As long as it meets the safety requirements? Also do the road race classes require a road race license? If we are going bye rally America's rules on license's, you can't even run a AWD car as a novice. . And who's safety standard do we follow? Boy, it is becoming clear that we have some discussions for the 1st meeting of the year.

So anyone on board with turbo cars back to SP?

I'd also like to address the ITE rules.

Since I'm kind of new here, I don't know the entire history of this class or that. But I guess someone ran with a car in the wrong class(rally), set some record and wasn't protested in time. Hence the need for some special supp line? This may not be a new issue to some, but it isn't listed in the supps, so it's a new issue to others.

As I read the Rally rules, I think I can enter the Mach in that class as Rally Prepared. Either way, Rally.

Rich, someone should have the meeting minutes on the rule change. It wasn't that long ago. 10 or less is my guess and we only have 3 or 4 meetings a year. We should be able to locate it. I was pretty sure I saw the wording in the supps in the last couple if years or so. (my mind is going fast)

In any case, we need to re insert it and maybe take a look at allowing the class at all. It's not an SCCA class anymore.

Dave Y

Here is a clew that might help us track it down a time frame. Looking at the current Jefferson Records, both directions were set for Rally in 1998. One at each event but with different drivers. They are not exactly "blown away" times.

Dave Y

Well, if rally isn't an SCCA class anymore, then you could inject: Rally Stock, Rally Prepared and Rally Modified. Actually, not could, SHOULD add them. And guess what???? NO special licensing needed. Hmm, I might have to email SCCA about these classes....rules say no vehicle should be exceeding 60mph on a straight or 40mph in turns.......but you can have 1 passenger. My navigator from the Silver State would love to ride along at Duryea or any other hill for that matter.

Steve, forget it. Find a new angle. We are NOT going there.

As Rally is no longer part of SCCA I doubt there would be a benefit to adding Rally classes into the Time Trials rules considering Level 4 events (Hillclimbs) are the only segment where a rally car would make any amount of sense. The rules do allow regions (or series) to create their own classes if they see a need and to define those in the supps. If the PHA sees value in defining a rally class than they can do so but aren't we constantly talking about reducing the number of classes?

This and a previous discussion on ITE have raised a point I (as an Event Steward) have been concerned about. It appears we have been allowing people to enter in classes that perhaps aren't properly defined and in some cases maybe should not be included at all. ITE is a great example of this as there are no rules to define what ITE is. It also appears that Rally is the same way once Rally left SCCA. This is one item I would like to bring up at the next meeting on February 7th. We either need to stop allowing entries in undefined classes or we need to formally define (in the supps or in the TTR if appropriate) the class so that everyone is working to the same rules.

God point Matt. Don't leave out SPU and SPO. They also need defining. Perhaps we need to consider all "Regional Classes"

Dvae Y.

mrevilracing wrote:Well, if rally isn't an SCCA class anymore, then you could inject: Rally Stock, Rally Prepared and Rally Modified. Actually, not could, SHOULD add them. And guess what???? NO special licensing needed. Hmm, I might have to email SCCA about these classes....rules say no vehicle should be exceeding 60mph on a straight or 40mph in turns.......but you can have 1 passenger. My navigator from the Silver State would love to ride along at Duryea or any other hill for that matter.

Steve i'm following you on this one. I also believe Matt misunderstood what your talking about. We are talking about the new SCCA rally-x. Not rally. Its a good point as too should we include them? Now i'll already guess one answer, put them in SP or SM classes. Well, now lets step back too Dave's comment about FIA rally cars changing setups and grassroot guys not haveing the money too do that. Back to turbo's then, What happens when any of these guys come to race and have a turbo car? They get thrown in SM. Now these guys are set up for running in the dirt, dosn't seem fair to put them in SM unless they at least have SM mods. (I bet there are some racers that actually would run hills if they are willing to destroy their cars in the dirt)

Just another view from the outside the box!

Just what we need, more classes. Like a Mustang with a cam and nothing else is any more competitive than a WRX with coilovers or whatever in STX trim. Guess what? They both get to run SM. AS THEY SHOULD BE. We can't make classes so every guy that shows up will win. Some cars just aren't competitive. That's life. If I show up to an autocross in a Contour SVT I'm gonna be in GS. Guess what? I'm going to get my ass handed to me by someone in a MINI S. Is it the MINI owner's fault I have a contour and he has the "right" car? Nope. If anyone won't hillclimb because they don't have the PERFECT car for the class, they SHOULD NOT HILLCLIMB.

Boy i'll never win this snail battle huh. Now throw a turbo on that BMW and lets see what that car can do. I have a FMIC you can use. (new one just came today). Heck can you use the stock evo turbo? Might be a frankenstein job but i'd lend a hand for that.

Actually i was thinking more on the lines of adopting their classing system. Much fewer classes! 3 levels of each, FWD, RWD, and AWD.

WHAT? didn't you read my story on Bruno? That was car was 450HP Turbo. But no one complains because he was a true "race" "rally" car. It set the kind of record we can look to for generations and talk about the time a "REAL RALLY" car ran at Duryea. Bruno himself was a amateur driver with limited skills but still someone with notariety. He ran that car at numerious Pro rally events across the US. Aaron and I hiked the 4500 feet of Mt Washington to watch him run that hillclimb. He ran Pikes Peak and probably most of the New England Hillclimbs (maybe Bob D' can confirm).

Thank goodness some of you guys aren't in Historic or Specials. Why don't we hear about those guys compaining about the rules? How would you like to run against a 1000HP Metanol powered Indy Car in Specials or a one of Dan Gurney's fastest creations in Historic or one of the famous McKee formula cars.

Dave Y.

Mark Aubele wrote:Just what we need, more classes. Like a Mustang with a cam and nothing else is any more competitive than a WRX with coilovers or whatever in STX trim. Guess what? They both get to run SM. AS THEY SHOULD BE. We can't make classes so every guy that shows up will win. Some cars just aren't competitive. That's life. If I show up to an autocross in a Contour SVT I'm gonna be in GS. Guess what? I'm going to get my ass handed to me by someone in a MINI S. Is it the MINI owner's fault I have a contour and he has the "right" car? Nope. If anyone won't hillclimb because they don't have the PERFECT car for the class, they SHOULD NOT HILLCLIMB.

Thank you Mark. I'm glad to see someone gets it.

dspgti wrote:WHAT? didn't you read my story on Bruno? That was car was 450HP Turbo. But no one complains because he was a true "race" "rally" car. It set the kind of record we can look to for generations and talk about the time a "REAL RALLY" car ran at Duryea. Bruno himself was a amateur driver with limited skills but still someone with notariety. He ran that car at numerious Pro rally events across the US. Aaron and I hiked the 4500 feet of Mt Washington to watch him run that hillclimb. He ran Pikes Peak and probably most of the New England Hillclimbs (maybe Bob D' can confirm).

Thank goodness some of you guys aren't in Historic or Specials. Why don't we hear about those guys compaining about the rules? How would you like to run against a 1000HP Metanol powered Indy Car in Specials or a one of Dan Gurney's fastest creations in Historic or one of the famous McKee formula cars.

Dave Y.

Huh, I'm confused . Please don't take this wrong but i'm not sure what your saying with Bruno? (I did reread the story). How did this record become so great? I'm really lost.

As for specials, Looks like that might be me in the next few years. As ITE probably will never be, or never use rules that allow me. (which they could). What will it take to beat the special 2 record at Duryea? Honestly i think the car could do it with about 300 hp more and shave about 400-500lb's. Now i'm not saying i could do it so calm down. I wouldn't mind trying tho! And let me tell you that would be one scary arse ride i could imagine.

Oh and why don't they complain about the rules. Well nobody pushes anyone into their classes. If you want to run those with those guys you kno the rules or at least you should.

I have in my hands a copy of the enrty form and supps for the 2000 Duryea Hillclimb. On page 3 it states, Rally: Rally class will be offered to competitors who hold a valid divisional or national Pro Rally License.

Dave Y

Sorry Jeremy. I didn't realize that you wouldn't know the Audi TQC is the Turbo Quattro Coupe or sometimes refered to as the UR. The record is super slow in your terms but you have to put it into perspective of 1995.
Someone familiar with Rally should help me out here. Didn't they have a spec or required tire? I know it was a pizza cutter by todays standards. I think the cage requirements are a little tougher as well. Let's not go down that road just yet.

Dave Y.