SPU/SPO classing

[Speednation]

OK, so what is the deal with these classes. I have heard that the cutoff is 3.5L, but the Northern New Jersey Region SCCA has the cutoff at 2.5L. That was the same cutoff they used at VIR when we ran there a few years ago. What about a rotary? Last time I checked, a 1.3L Rotary translated to a 2.6L displacement for classing. I think that we need to clarify all of these question, ever since Gordon (I love Gordon BTW) opened up this can of worms and started the SPO thing. I don't think that Matt Green's cage argument that Gordon is not eligible for SPO pertains to Time Trials since you can run with just a roll bar in nearly every class (except for an open car) until the new rules go into effect, but we need to get all these issues clarified. Any ideas?

[Speednation]

Sorry - I thought of another important question. What tires are permitted? The guys at VIR we running non DOT slicks, but I can't find any consistency between the regions I have looked at (except that so far everyone has the cutoff at 2.5L). Again, we need to get these rules set in stone and put into the sups before we get too much further.

[Steve Tumolo]

Mike,

The reason you do not see any rhyme or reason between the regions is because SPO and SPU are not national classes so each region kinda makes the rules fit whatever cars show up. It is good point and one that I think should at least be spelled out in our event supps.

I ran into a similar problem a few years ago at VIR when there was a 70's vintage GT-1 Corvette running in Street Mod . Needless to say he cleaned my clock but that thing was a GT-1 with a passenger seat and a bunch of tubes for a front clip hiding under the widened body.

[dspgti]

The class thing is getting out of hand. We had a (PHA) motion 2 years ago to clean up the multitude of classes but it never got off the ground. We have to do something by next year. We already have 3 Specials classes to catch those that prepared beyond other catagories. I believe it was a mistake for the event organizers or whoever to allow the start of other classes. SPO and SPU are unlimited modification on slicks class. As such it should be accepted as a full GCR cage requirement as is Specials. (Yes, Gordan has a cage)

I personaly would like to see next year have a minimum 3 cars per class rule. All classes not having three competitors at an event will have a bumping order. Eliminate duplication like ITB and FSP, one Street Mod class, combine Vintage and Historic with a little more breakdown of enigine sizes and Formula cars, to name just a few.

According to rules, I don't believe the tech inspectors have the authority to challenge the class legality of cars during safety inspection. It is alot to expect them to know all the safety equipment rules plus class specific rules. I wish there was a better way. Just last weekend at Duryea we had a competitor running illegal in a GT class. We are Ladies and Gentlemen and we don't want to come off as petty or vendictive but sometimes there should be someone impartial to uphold the rules. Maybe there needs to be an individual or group that approves cars for classification?

That doesn't answer your question about the rest of this year. But let's think about it for next year.

Don't get me started on roll cage rules again.

[Matt Rowe]

Dave,

I'll agree with most of your points except that per the TTR the Tech Inspectors most definitely have the ability to challenge the legality of a car within a class. Now that doesn't mean they don't already have a lot to do but that doesn't stop a competitor from asking for a specific car to be looked at. That request can either be made to a tech inspector of the chief steward and makes the review more of an impartial process. Keep in mind that typically classing errors are just that, errors.

As for the number of classes I whole heartedly agree that classes with only 1 or 2 cars don't look like thrilling competition. It won't be easy to come up with a agreeable solution though but now is a good time to start taking a look at it.

A couple of things to consider:

How do we deal with buidling new classes? For example say someone wants to run their car in formula XYZ and he is the first one. He runs a couple events where he is bumped into Formula ZZZ where he gets killed so he decides to stay home or go and run with another group.

Also, how do you deal with the bumping situation for year end trophies. At any given event the classes that get bumped into another class are going to change. Do you assign championship points for the class the person entered or the class they got bumped into?

[RX-Midget]

I ran in the SPU class at Polish Mtn. I thought that it was cool to have another class to run in, hell, some people run more than one class in a weekend! That is cool if you can do it.

At the awards ceremony I got grief from one of the organizers who themselves neglected to put any RULES on the new classes! The people I spoke to prior to the event had all thought that the cutoff was 3.5L, but some had different opinions.

Yeah, I think that you need the rules and requirements in the Supps before you allow the class in an event.

Here is a link to the WDCR SPU and SPO class’s rules. I don’t see any mention of the rotary displacement being bumped, just as our Supps do not require it in the Specials class.

http://www.wdcr-scca.org/marrs/07SPO-U.pdf


The difference between SPU/O and Specials is that SPU/O cars are all Production/GT based cars where Specials allow anything with 4 wheels and a suspension.

I just looked at the Specials class points and the majority of the cars running are Production/GT style cars with only a few open-wheel cars in the mix (the open-wheelers are however leading the points).

As much as I would like to run an all Production/GT unlimited type class, the reality of it is that I don’t think we need another 2 classes when the Specials classes seem to be working for us.

[Speednation]

I love the idea of bumping - we do it in autocross all the time. It saves the region lots of money on trophies. Sometimes, the class that has 3 competitors gets a stray from a lesser class bunped into it, and they don't think that is fair whenever that stray beats them. "We already have a class - leave us alone". But the reality is that this is supposed to be a competition. There is no competition unless you are in a battle. That is why I like the "record" thing. If I am at an event, and I am the only one in my class, I can still compete against the guy who ran several years ago and set a record.

But as Dave said, and I have been saying for years, we have too many classes. At Polish Mtn, we gave out 42 trophies - there were only 88 competitors!. How bad are our egos that close to 1/2 of the people who show up get a trophy. It stops to mean something when you can get a trophy so easily.

Back to the ITB/FSP thing. You would still count the records of each car when they compete, but when it comes to awarding trophies, you should combine the classes at the hill. That is what they do in autocross. But you have to be careful of someone mixing/matching rules. Each car must be legal for their respective class - ie: the ITB guy can't run 8" rims even though the FSP guy can, but the FSP guy has to have a full interior.

So I would love to discuss this further over the winter. I think that Dave's original thought re: combining IT and Street Prepared is a good one when it comes to trophies. And to be true to PHA history, each car can still compete for a record independently. The SPO/SPU thing needs to be clarified further or dropped entirely.

[Steve Tumolo]

I also think it is a great idea to bump cars in classes that only have 1 or 2 cars. And it is a good thing to start talking about it now for next year because as I see it there is going to be a whole slew of things to think about.

Maybe someone can make up a chart that shows what class gets bumped where. Again, I think it is a great idea and one that will only make things more fun.

ps: Is there anyway to use a PAX to even things out for the slower cars that get bumped up?

[Joe Foering]

As Matt Rowe points out, Tech Inspectors DO have the authority to deal with classification of cars- it is specifically stated in the TTR, but we have chosen to focus on safety issues and let the competitors police their classes. I do have a complete set of rule books at each event to answer any questions about classification or legality if called upon to do so...
I was present at the start line after Duryea when the question of a cars' legality was raised and can make the following observations...It is my understanding-based on my recollection of the existing rules-that protests must be made by a competitor within the dubious cars' class no later than 30 minutes after the last run, in writing, with a $25 fee, which will be returned if the protest is upheld. Further, the protest must be specific as to the alleged illegality of the car. None of the conditions regarding the filing of the protest had been met in this instance...that is not to say that the concerns were invalid, just that we have to conform to the rules if we don't want chaos...
With respect to "bumping", the rules in the supps regarding regarding Historic/Vintage cars do have a minimum of 2 cars in a class or the single car is bumped; while these classes seldom have fewer than 2 entrants, they occassionally do and I have never seen the "bump" rule applied.
I believe SCCA says that , if a class exists and an entrant meets the class specs. a class must be provided; that is not to say that one can't combine classes for trophy, but for points the official classes take precident.
SPU/SPO classes are Regional only classes and I imagine, technically, that the sanctioning Region of an event should have approved the classes within the Region before these classes are allowed to compete. I do not know if any of our sanctioning Regions have approved these classes with specifications for allowable mods...
I can find no reference to SPU/SPO classes in the Supps, but I do find reference to Special classes for cars that do not meet the allowed class specs, therefore, until these classes are approved for competition within the sanctioning Region and/or the Supps, the classes are not legal for competition and the cars must compete in a valid class- such as the SPECIAL classes.
I do not profess to know all the rules and specifications, but, if I don't know the answer, I will search the rule books until I find the answer or admit that I can't, not just say something that I "think" is the answer.

[dlascoskie]

The class thing is getting out of hand. I personaly would like to see next year have a minimum 3 cars per class rule. All classes not having three competitors at an event will have a bumping order.

I agree 100%. The trick is making it close competition across the board, but I think this should be close to the top of the list of things to sort out during winter meetings.

I understand what Joe and the rulebooks say about "a class must be provided" and I'm fine with that for records and class-points sake, however, for the trophies, it would be fun to run against others. I bet Nelson is loving this from a timing perspective.

[TKnorr]

We certainly have too many classes. For a all events, we could combine classes that would be competitively equal. As to PHA class championships, the existing classes could still be recognized. Charlie Reel, Paul Trout and myself formed our own unofficial class and the winner will receive the British Challenge Cup (purchased by the three competitors). It has been competitive and a lot of fun. Currently there is a tie; the winner will be decided at Fall Weatherly. Having grouped the cars for Jefferson, I can readily see how classes could be combined. In the past, I have organized all cars by their actual times. I will update this analyses for others to see.
This issue will be on the PHA agenda. It is extremely important that all have an opportunity to provide input.
Tom Knorr

[Rich Sweigart]

We tried combining classes in the early 80's , it is confusing to everyone involved and turned a few drivers away from hillclimbing because they felt that they could not be competive in their groupings.
I am sure that Sue remembers Groups.


Rich

[Speednation]

I'll bet we can come up with a simple bump system for trophies - the bumped competitor (even if he/she gets no trophy due to a bump) would still earn full class points towards the end of the year class champion.

I think, while we are at it, we could come up with some fun classes for trophies (not class points). If Tom and Charlie want to form a class, they should be able to do it and the winner gets a trophy if they get enough people into the class (like 5 cars or so). Again - if (when) Rich and Bill blow their doors off, Bill and Rich get the top points for H1, but the winner of the Charlie/Tom-etc class get a trophy. Get a few classes like that and the region saves some money on trophies.

We could also do a "pro challenge" class. You know - the guys who always win their class and who already have the record for that class. We do something like that in autocross. All who agree run a PAX based on the record for their class - and all go into 1 class. I'll bet several of us would do that - again - only for a trophy - not class points. A lot of us judge whether or not we did well at a hill based on how a friend in a different class did. I'm ALWAYS looking at Rich Rock's, Dave Miller's, and Bill Lesig's times to decide if I ran well that weekend.

[Rich Rock]

protests must be made by a competitor within the dubious cars' class no later than 30 minutes after the last run, in writing, with a $25 fee, which will be returned if the protest is upheld. Further, the protest must be specific as to the alleged illegality of the car. None of the conditions regarding the filing of the protest had been met in this instance

Actually, two of the conditions HAD been met (in-class competitor and specificity of allegation). The others would have been met, but the fact that more than 30 minutes had passed made the point moot.

Rich Rock

[Joe Foering]

As Rich Rock and I discussed on the phone, he did compete in that class at Duryea (not his regular class)-his car was not running, and he did mention that the questionable car had oversize wheels. What made the issue moot and what I meant in saying that none of the conditions were met was that a protest has to be filed in writing within 30 minutes of the last run accompanied by a $25 fee. Without these 3 elements there is no formal protest.

[dspgti]

Wow, I thought I'd get a lot of flack on the class thing. Great to hear it is being received with an open mind. Of coarse, this is just the forum crowd. We have a lot of ideas to bat around on this issue and I think we are on the right track.

When was the last time there was an official protest at a hillclimb? None that I can remember. I heard there was one in the early 90's when an ITB car was using some DSP prep rules. I had an issue twice with a competitor and had it straighten out between us a gentlemen and ladies understanding. That is usually the way it works. Unfortunitly, at Duryea the "gentlemen's" approach didn't work and the offending competitor choose to ignore complaints from his fellow class drivers. I believe the other competitors in the class were a little too embarrased to submit the protest and procrastinated till it was too late. I'm not sure they would have acually submitted it anyhow. My question is; if a tech inspector has the authority to verify a cars class, why use the official protest rules? The tech inspector can walk up the offending competitor and inform them to make the changes or change classes. If not, then enter an official protest.

Too simple???

[jerdeitzel]

Okay from an outside view on this subject. I'm going to assume i kno "the car" your talking about. It seems to me the class he jumped into is actually a higher level class anyway. Isn't that Okay? I can understand going to a lower level class but, shoulnd you be able to go up? I really don't kno the rules for the class your talking about so if i'm wrong sorry. If you guys want to get that strict tho, i've seem many a cars with incorrect things on there cars. Most of them mean nothing in the "real" world but, rules are rules!

[Joe Foering]

It has been the practice-up to this point-to have Tech Inspectors focus on the safety aspects of the tech inspection and allow the class members to police their respective classes. As happened at Weatherly, I was approached by some competitors early on Saturday about the improper classing of a vehicle. Upon verifying that the car was in the wrong class, I advised the driver that he had the option of changing class or, if protested, he would be disqualified...he changed classes. To verify class on every vehicle before each event would be a time-consuming proceedure that would require a more exacting inspection than our present time constraints allow (is there anyone who knows the specifications of all the vehicles that compete, their proper class, and has it at immediate recall). We feel that it is better to continue with the present practice which emphasizes safety and let the classes police themselves. This was occuring at Duryea but the proceedure did not happen in a timely manner. There is a protest policy and proceedure in effect in SCCA and, if used appropriately, it works.

[dspgti]

I am 100% behind Joe F. that we can't expect the saftey inspectors to police the classes. My question however is: Can we casually approach a saftey inspector during an event, consult with them on class rules and impose on them to approach an offender without entering an official protest?

My intention was not to be too specific about who, what, when and why the Duryea incident went down, just how should we handle it in the future. I'm not sure I go with the logic on going a class higher because we have something illegal for the class we want to run in. Who's to say what class is "higher" or "faster"? Do I bolt a turbo on my car FSP car and run in DSP or ESP? It is one thing to deviate from rules outlined in the body of certain class rules but to ignore dimensions that appear in GCR spec lines for specific make and model is another. There is a reason they appear there!

I know several drivers have kept quiet about small deviations such as in Street Mod, Street Prepared guys not having complete interiors and things like that (you can remove the back seat only if it interfers with the roll cage/bar. We keep letting the small things go and then someone complains when we try to adhere to the rules. Sometimes you just have to draw the line or else inforce every little regulation. Personnaly I'm of the latter influence. When I started running in DSP the class had 8 to 10 competitors. I learned early that you had better be correct or someone was going to point it out and insist it be corrected. I also learned from my mentor, Rolf Mair that if you want to first in your class, always be prepared to be protested and back it up.

[Joe Foering]

The problem I see with "casually" approaching a Tech Insp about an alleged offender and asking the Insp. to approach the offender is that action amounts to having the Insp. "police" the classes, not the fellow class competitors... I don't have a problem with Inspectors answering questions about class or legal mods, or even talking to the alleged offender-if approached by him/her, and will do so whenever possible; but I really don't want to get into "policing"... that is why the rules are available on line or in hard copy from your Region or National- so that we all can read them and avoid protests. I would think that, in order to prepare and properly class one's own vehicle, one would have to read the rules... My first question/advice when approached about an issue is to find out if the person has read the rules and suggest that they do so if they haven't. The incident at Duryea could have shown that the protest proceedure can work if it had been used in a timely fashion. With respect to deviating from rules outlined as compared to ignoring specified dimensions...what's the difference, they're both violations of the rules- just that one may be more obvious than the other. Who determines what is a rule that can be violated as opposed to one that can't?
By the way, we can always use more volunteers for Tech Inspection.