Data, facts and questions to ask yourself

[RX-Midget]

The question about the 5-6pt harness was directed at Dan from his previous response. Jeff, I know your position is based on the tubes near you head.

Moving on......

It has been mentioned at lest twice now that a removable cage (or cage section) could be an alternative, but no one that has opposed the cage requirements have acknowledged this. Why? I’m not sure. With a removable forward cage section, you could have a cage for the hills and then in about 10-15 min take it out for the ride back home with only a roll bar near your head (a risk that is acceptable to some of you).

All the energy spent bantering back and forth could have easily been put in to some cleverly designed cages that will come out of the car and leave it as a roll bar only car for the street. These removable sections could even be small enough to be stored in the trunk or storage area for the ride home from a hillclimb. I have spent some time looking at how I would do this for even my daily driven Mazda 3 and feel confident that it would not be a technological break through – just some engineering (and not the kind that put a man on the moon!)

I want to explore the design possibilities that will allow the existing non-caged cars to be modified to use removable cages. This will address the owners desire to drive on the street without a cage, but I think that a cage should be installed for running the hills.

The SCCA GCR provides some insight to removable cage/section requirements under the S/S class rules. These requirements would have to be accepted and carried over to the Street classes and I’m not sure how that process works.


Showroom Stock roll cage requirements per the 2007 GCR.

Section 9.4.2 (page 90)

B. Removable roll cages and braces shall be very carefully designed and
constructed to be at least as strong as a permanent installation. If
one tube fits inside another tube to facilitate removal, the removable
portion shall fit tightly and shall bottom by design and at least two (2)
bolts shall be used to secure each such joint. The telescope section
shall be at least eight (8) inches in length. Minimum bolt diameter is
3/8 inches.



So, what do you guys think about this? You could have your cake, and eat it too.

Brian

edit to correct page # in GCR

[dlascoskie]

I do have a removable cage already and I have commented on that earlier in this thread. I choose to run just the roll bar portion. It's not an easy in-and-out job for me in my car (can you say tight fit?) and the excessive squeaks and creeks are from that cage when it is installed. Not from my chasis. But you're rigth Steve, it does tie the car together nicely and improves handling, without question. To be honest, I never even thought of the danger of "tubes near my unhelmeted head" or the fact that a caged car won't absorb the energy of a street accident like it was designed to until I heard those things here. But they make a lot of sense to me when I think about them.

[JekylandHyde]

I drive to a vast majority of my events.
Where could I store a bolt-in cage on the way there and back?

How about the Fiero?

What about the Miatas?

A bolt-in option does not really solve the problem from what I can tell.
It may be a workable solution for some.

To really find out if that is an acceptable solution for individuals and the group, someone would have to actually take the time to talk to the roll bar people to see how feasible it is for them.

[RX-Midget]

The roll cage sections do not need to be the full size of the cage. Think of breaking the front cage section down into at least 3 sections (left, right and center tube) that all bolt together and they would fit in the passenger foot-well, strapped together and to the remaining cage to prevent them from bouncing around – or just take off the drivers side section to reduce the cargo room required.

Yes, each model car will present different problem areas for installation but they can be resolved. If a person is clever enough to find an enormous amount of sponsorship, add turbos or superchargers, or swap motors and do all the other legal mods in a class they certainly can find an individual that can think outside the box to come up with a solution for their fitment issues.

At this point I feel like just building one to prove that it can be done and address the issues previously brought up about cracking your head on a roll cage tube. However I have a funny feeling that even if this issue is addressed there will then be a different issue and it will be a never ending spiral where the real objection is never know – only implied in time.

In engineering we tend to call this stuff “Feature-Creep” where you are trying to hit a moving target of features and acceptability. Lay it all out. Safety concerns, fitment, cost target, you name it. Write it down in ONE document and then we can start to work on a solution that addresses all those issues and will not drive people away.

[JekylandHyde]

As they have not applied to me, I'm not familiar with the rules for cages.
I know for a roll bar , the main hoop has to be once continuous piece.

Is that not true of the front hoop of a cage?

Having that all one piece is why I was thinking transportation would be a huge headache.

[RX-Midget]

http://scca.org/_FileLibrary/File/GCR2007.pdf

Here is a similar idea. It needs the left and right sections to be smaller and removable, but it is asimilar concept for those whoe have not seen a removable cage.



edit to add roll cage pic

[Matt Green]

This is exactly the cage that's in my car.

BTW- the latest version of the rule proposal specifically calls out that bolt-in and bolt-together structures are allowed in all cars.

[JekylandHyde]

That's an interesting solution Brian.

The next question, for those that are concerned about retention & recruitment, would be will the roll bar folks be willing to go this route or would they still leave?

If I would have continued in hillclimbing, this would have been a worthwhile alternative to consider.

I find it particularly attractive as every builder that has looked at my car had serious concerns about being ableto design a cage that could accomodate the t-top mechanism. This option would negate that as the T's could be removed prior to the cage being installed.

For me, it would still be a considerable hassle to install and uninstall it both days each race weekend to get home and back.

Brian, are there any "quick release" fasteners available for this type of installation or does it have to be strictly "nuts and bolts."

Thanks for your time,

[RX-Midget]

Brian, are there any "quick release" fasteners available for this type of installation or does it have to be strictly "nuts and bolts."

You should check, but the GCR allows PIP pins to be use for removable braces - at least the ones listed in the Production classes. These are the ball detent pins that retract the ball when the button in the center of the handle is pushed or pulled.

[RX-Midget]

Check figure 14, 15 & 16 of the GCR for other removable brace mounting methods. PIP pins are shown in Fig 16. Reading what I copied from the GCR, 3/8" bolts and hardware are required for the telescoping mount design.

The S/S cage requirement I quoted does not limit the attachment method to the telescoping section design, however it must be as strong as a permanent installation.

I think that using a combination of these methods you should be able to come up with something.

What I have proposed is not "Gospel", just my take on it. Please work with your tech inspector to make sure your plan and execution is legal. They are a great resource and can help you avoid headaches later on down the road.

[Steve Tumolo]

Hey Brian, where the heck were you when I said the EXACT same thing about a month ago? I could have used your help since it seemed to fall on deaf ears, or blind eyes in this case.

I tought it was a good idea too. Bolt in the front section to race,then unbolt it to drive on the street. I had that exact same cage as well. I could have the whole thing out in a few minutes by myself. All someone would have to do to add it to an exsisting roll bar would add the front section. The Autopower cage design can be copied in this manner. By using sleeves to bolt everything together it can be broken down by unbolting the bolts going through the sleeves and sliding the sleeves back. There would have to be a couple small tubes welded to the existing roll bar but that would be it.

[jmullins]

To get back and forth to the event on the event weekend you would only have to remove one bar. The one that runs by your head. That’s 4 bolts.
If you are worried about the front upper cage bar, that would mean a few more bolts to remove.
This is what is also in the car I am building.
I have added additional bars in and welded the whole thing together but then it is a race only vehicle.
I realize you would rather not have a cage at all, but this seems to be a decent compromise.
Safe on the street and the hill.
More hassle, yes. But not much.
At least give these cages a look at the next hill.
As far as price, keep your eye out for a used one. (Not used in a crash, just in someone else’s car)

[JekylandHyde]

From the first post of this thread:

Keep in mind that I have not spoken to everyone ... this is just a sampling from the people I was
able to track down. This does not include and vintage or historic cars, but what if the rule brings them in to?

Now that Vintage and Historic cars are officially throw into the mix (see the June Fastrack), someone might be interested in polling those drivers to see how many more racers PHA will be losing.

Looks like fire suppression systems are coming as well ...

Good luck everyone.

[gdh57]

Looks like fire suppression systems are coming as well ...

Good luck everyone.

Since you say you are fond of facts, how about taking them into account?

current rule:

10.19. FIRE SYSTEM
Fire Systems are strongly recommended, but not required in Time Trials. All cars shall meet the minimum requirements set forth in GCR section 9.3.22.B Hand-Held Fire Extinguisher Requirements.

proposed change:

Item 11. Effective 1/1/08: Change section 10.19 to read as follows:
Fire systems/extinguishers are strongly recommended, but not required in PDX (Level 1) and Club Trial (Level 2) events Time Trials.
All cars competing in Track Trials (Level 3) and Hillclimb (Level 4) events shall meet the minimum requirements set forth in GCR section
9.3.22.B.

9.3.22.B:

B. Hand-Held Fire Extinguisher Requirements
The following are acceptable for Showroom Stock, Touring and Improved Touring cars:
1. Halon 1301 or 1211, two (2) pound minimum capacity by weight.
2. Dry chemical, two (2) pound minimum with a positive indicator showing charge. Chemical: 10 BC Underwriters Laboratory rating, potassium bicarbonate (Purple K) recommended, 1A10BC Underwriters Laboratory rating multipurpose, ammonium phosphate and barium sulfate or Monnex.
3. The fire extinguisher shall be securely mounted in the cockpit. All mounting brackets shall be metal and of the quick-release type.

Sorry, but I'm really tired of the hysteria. I don't have a strong opinion one way or the other on the cage rule, but I am sure sick of reading the same post over and over.

Grace

[JekylandHyde]

That is a great point Grace and thank you for correcting me.
I read Brian's comment in the other thread and took it as fact.

My mistake for not evaluating that rule change comprehensively.

[Rick Kase]

Please remember that refering to a scetion in GCR does NOT mean it is in effect in Time trials. To be in effect in our events it must be in the Time Trial rules. So , try not to quote a GCR section unless it is the same word for word in the Time Trials rules, it can cause much confusion.

[RX-Midget]

All I said was that item #11 MAY afffect SOME of us. Thats all.

[JekylandHyde]

Way back when I was gathering information for this thread, I had contacted many other areas of the country that do hillclimbs and I indicated I would update this thread as I heard from them.

I just got another response to my inquiries today and I am just following through on sharing the comments:

Jeff,
I guess better late than never. So sorry for the delay. Must have missed this e-mail in March, was going through my mail to delete things and found this.

Have been putting on hillclimbs since 1972. 16 years at Keno Hillclimb in Klamath Falls, Oregon and this is our 20th year of Larison Rock Hillclimb in Oakridge, Oregon (Near Eugene, OR)

Never had a fatality.

Never had a broken bone even. And yes, we have some extremely fast cars and drivers. Have had many totaled cars.

If we were to require rollbars/cages in all cars we would probably have a 50% drop in drivers immediately. We have quite a few cars in our "stock" classes and those would be the ones impacted. We require rollbars in all open cars - duh- a no brainer and in all cars in classes on race rubber. (Not DOT) We have talked about requiring bars on all cars "capable" of going under 2 Minutes, which is our exclusive Under 2 Minute Club of faster cars and drivers. Almost all of our fastest drivers have put rollbars or cages in their cars as they realize the immediate danger because of how fast they are becoming.

Thanks for your questions. Hope it is not too late to help.

Check out our hillclimb videos on our website: http://www.eescc.org

Bonnie Mueller
Chairman- Larison Rock Hillclimb
Oakridge/Eugene Oregon
Emerald Empire Sports Car Club

[Rick Kase]

Question?
Is the club responding an SCCA region club that uses a SCCA sanction for its hills?

[JekylandHyde]

Question? Is the club responding an SCCA region club that uses a SCCA sanction for its hills?

No Rick, it is not an SCCA club. So what?

If you read the first post of this thread, you would see that I made an
attempt to contact every club/group/organization in the country that is
currently operating hillclimbs in order to get as complete a picture as possible.

If the point of your question is to debunk the merit of a response from another club, I'm not sure what to tell you beyond that is sadly short-sighted, but not at all surprising. I'm not aware of any "business" that would not be interested in learning from a competitor and/or another similar market.

Good luck,