PHA response on roll cage issue

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JekylandHyde
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Post by JekylandHyde »

Matt Rowe wrote:SE has not posted the kind of data that has been requested neither in the forums nor in their response.
This info:
Matt Rowe wrote:Still there has been no information from the south as far as how many cars had bars vs cages this year and in what classes.
I apologize if I overlooked the term "this year," but they clearly indicated that they looked into this last year. IIRC, they had something like 40% of the drivers with bars and 30% would not cage.

This rule will kill the hills in SE.
I don't imagine that you all being the only hillclimbing region left in SCCA will make you shine, but I sure bet it will make you stick out.

I'd venture a guess that it is in the best interest of the future of SCCA hillclimbing to support, promote and pray that SE starts thriving.

But what do I know?
Matt Rowe wrote:Research was done before to formulate a proposal but we all agree that more information, more detail is a good thing.
I'd love to hear what this research was and why Matt Green was not aware of it when he called me. He told me he had no research and it was just his gutt feeling.

Is examing Matt's gutts considered research?
If so, then the proposal sure makes sense.
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JekylandHyde
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Post by JekylandHyde »

Matt Rowe wrote:I will only say this once, but for someone who has given up on hillclimbing you surely spend a lot of time bad mouthing the sport and those still passionately involved in it.
Hey Matt, show me one place I have ever bad mouthed hillclimbing.
I have nothing against against hillclimbing. In fact, I can honestly say it is the sport I most wish to participate in, but that does not mean I would do so at the expense of my integrity, what I feel is 'right' and what I want from the sport.

The only thing you are going to see me "bad mouthing" is Matt Green's proposal of this rule and your support of it. When someone in risk assessment admits to doing no research, of any kind, to propose a rule that will affect everyone based on "gutt feeling" it sure seems like a huge travesty to me. Furthermore, for that person to admit publicly that they would be the first person in line to do what they have "determined" to be the absolute worst possible risk for the entire group is shameful.

How can he preach, promote and force upon as a rule that he himself does not stand by?
Matt Rowe wrote:Also, if you don’t feel able to attend events I have to wonder what your motivation is to continue to portray the sport and everyone’s efforts in a bad light?
Again, not the sport or "everyone," just the "Matts" and this rule.
Matt Rowe wrote:Honestly, you seem to come across as either bitter, or worse, disappointed that the remaining parties are actively trying to fully examine this and make the best possible decision for the right reasons.
Bitter? Your damn straight I'm bitter.

As much as I went full throttle into supporting hillclimbing by every means I could possibly do ... through the newspaper, through recruiting volunteers, through recruiting new drivers, through securing national media, through helping out when I could, and yes, even through fighting this rule, ... to get a phone call by someone of official office, at my home, telling me the organization is fine with losing me ... YES, I am bitter.

Matt, look at all the work you do. How would you feel if someone in authority over you called you at home and told you they (and the group) are fine with losing you?

Yes, I fully admit I am bitter. I'm bitter that my girlfriend invested money into my NA so I could continue hillclimbing after I retire Hyde. This whole ordeal has made me extremely bitter.

As for dissappointment, yes, I am that too. But I am not dissappopinted that people are trying to get a ful lgraps on this "situation."

I'm dissapointed that the people that hold offices have failed the membership by not "fully examining" this issue before it got to this point. Seriously, who proposes a rule, gets it pushed along as far as it has been and THEN starts to examine it?

Is that really what you are telling us?

Matt Green told be blatantly on the phone that SE was never considered when this put together and he was surprised they offered resistance. Tell me, why should he be surprised? IF he did his homework BEFORE going this far he would have KNOWN SE would offer resistance.

Seriously Matt, does it really make sense to you that you all are doing research NOW?

Matt Rowe wrote:It sounds like you would be happier if the original rule would already be in place so you could feel justified in abandoning the sport and your fellow enthusiasts.
Nope ... I'd be happier if the person in charge of risk assessment did their homework before crashing the party with a major rule proposal and never offended me in the first place so that I would not have "abandoned" the sport.

Incidentaly, I take offense at that term. Telling me you are going to push a rule through that will BOOT me from the sport in the future and you are okay with losing me, so I take the hint and move on .... I wouldn't say that is me abandonding the sport.

If your boss tells you are going to be fired in a couple of years, are you abandoning the job if you look for a new place to work?

It sounds like you would have preferred I stick around so you could boot me when the rule goes through.

I surely have not abandoned my fellow enthusiasts as I just done everything I could today to help out a fellow hillclimber in need.
Matt Rowe wrote:It’s a genuine shame you have decided not to be a part of that.
... too bad you all didn't think of that before Matt Green called me at home and delivered the kind of trash that he did.

Yes, I'm very bitter.
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Rick Kase
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Post by Rick Kase »

Several points.

1. How many events in the SE are hills (level 4 ).
How many events are level 3. Does not the new proposed rule only apply to level 4 events?

2. Matt Rowe, you are way too nice in your responses to Jeff on this site.

3. Jeff - for someone who has in effect told the PHA hillclimb events to, Go Away I Want Nothing More To Do With You, ( this includes telling us not to send you any entries/mailings) you sure do say a lot.


As a member at large my response is, JEFF PLEASE JUST GO AWAY, I AM TIRED OF HEARING YOU COMPLAIN ABOUT SOMETHING YOU WANT NOTHING TO DO WITH.

Rick Kase
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JekylandHyde
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Post by JekylandHyde »

Hello Rick,

Maybe if you apologize to me for going off on me, for which I did not deserve, with one of your infamous public rants ... maybe, just maybe, I'll go away.

I missed a crucial piece of information at one of the Reading Hills during the driver's meeting and when we were asked if we had questions, I dared asked my question.

For that question, I got my turn in the Rick Kase hot seat.
You badgered me until you were red in the face because I was not listening to the meeting.

I bet it never occured to you that I was listening and missed the point because of other drivers talking loudly behind me made it challenging to hear. Nope, never gave that a thought did you? ... just drill into the guy who was the FIRST person at that meeting was TRYING to pay attention as best he could.

Did I really deserve all of that attention you gave me? Hell no I didn't.

Yes, I do say a lot. Regardless if I am racing on the hills, I still care about the sport and a lot of people that are still racing in these events. I'd hate to see it taken away from them by ill-prepared regulations that are founded on not much more than pixy dust.

I'll go away when I stop getting the continued support that I am getting through e-mail and phone calls. Until then, I'll keep calling it like I see it.

Whether you realize it or not, I'm fighting for your sport too.

Rick, you're welcome.
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Post by svann »

I honestly think that this proposal isn't going to fly. The silent majority has been awakened and democracy is at work. From what I'm hearing and reading in other areas of the time trial/hillclimb world, it isn't being supported. I think if representatives from all regions of the country had met earlier, this would never have gotten this far. In fact, I think that would be the proper way to handle rule changes in the future. Now everyone get back to racing and having fun. I am.
Stan Vann
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JekylandHyde
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Post by JekylandHyde »

Rick Kase wrote:1. How many events in the SE are hills (level 4 ).
How many events are level 3. Does not the new proposed rule only apply to level 4 events?
What difference does it make how many of each event they have?
Even if they only have one or two hills, do you really want to see it go away?

Would you like it if they pushed through a rule that killed PHA's level 3 events and pawned it off on, "Well they only do one or two of those, so who cares about them?"
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JekylandHyde
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Post by JekylandHyde »

svann wrote:I honestly think that this proposal isn't going to fly. The silent majority has been awakened and democracy is at work. From what I'm hearing and reading in other areas of the time trial/hillclimb world, it isn't being supported.
God, I hope you are right. I'm so glad that this issue was brought up on the SCCA forums as it seemed quite apparent from Matt Green's call that he/they expected to just push this through with little to no resistance.
svann wrote:I think if representatives from all regions of the country had met earlier, this would never have gotten this far. In fact, I think that would be the proper way to handle rule changes in the future.
100% agreed.

Homework first, then discuss it with other regions that a given issue could affect, then formulate a plan to move forward with formulating a rule. I would have hated to see what would have happened if this stayed under the radar.

Granted this probably doesn't have to happen with every little thing, but I don't know anyone that doesn't see the inherent importance of this particular rule.
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Rick Kase
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Post by Rick Kase »

Jeff, That is exactly my point, you have said you want nothing to do with us, and I called you on that point only.

So what do you do, you do a personal attack. That is why, I repeat, please go away, you have lost all sence of reason when all you can do is attack someone on a personal level.

All I did was ask you to follow your own statements that you did not want to play with us anymore.

Rick
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Post by JekylandHyde »

Rick Kase wrote:... you have lost all sence of reason when all you can do is attack someone on a personal level.
I'm sure the readers appreciate you making such a statement.

I guess that means you are not going to apologize? I'm not surprised.
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Rick Kase
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Post by Rick Kase »

jeff

You keep proving my point, you seem to have lost all reason.

There is nothing on this forum topic for me to apologize for. Again I did not rag on you, you did to me. I made one statement to you, I asked you to follow your own statements.

Rick
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Post by JekylandHyde »

Rick Kase wrote:There is nothing on this forum topic for me to apologize for.
Why does it have to be on this forum topic for you to apologize?

If you did wrong by someone, then you did wrong.
It doesn't matter where or when it happened.

You unjustly screamed at me. You wronged me.
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