Data, facts and questions to ask yourself

[Matt Green]

Because Jeff, I am a car whore, and beggars can't be choosy. Plain and simple.

[JekylandHyde]

Because Jeff, I am a car whore, and beggars can't be choosy. Plain and simple.

So, by your arguments, you were willing to risk your life and risk losing all SCCA hillclimbs
beyond what you, as someone in risk management/safety find acceptable, because you are a car whore?

WOW ~ Sounds like you are really true to your convictions on this rule.

[JekylandHyde]

... sorry, but I just have to come back to this.

Matt G, do you realize how much of a slap in the
face to your "roll bar drivers" your last comment is?

You are the one proposing this rule.
All of this drama started at your hands.

... but you were willing to take the risk, that you want to forbid
everyone else from taking, in the arguably most dangerous
roll-bar car on the hills ... because you are a car whore?!


WOW

[JekylandHyde]

Some updated information and feedback from another member, Ross Wessner. I posted for him HERE because his account is not functioning on this forum. Apparently that has not been resolved as he still can not post. He can only view.

At any rate, I am merely sharing his e-mail and photos since he cannot post them himself. Please see the thread I linked to above for Ross's feeling on his crash or even better, talk to him directly.

Ross's e-mail:

Hey Jeff, this is Ross Wessner. I saw your thread about my accident on
the hillclimb forums. I want to thank you for telling some of my
story. I am still unable to sign onto those forums to post my own
response, or pictures of my accident. I have a lot to say about the
whole roll bar rule issue, and a lot of that coming from my own
experience. I also have pictures ( and the car yet ) If anyone wants
to
see how violent my accident was. I saw Dave was talking about having a
meeting at Spring Jeffreson about the whole rule, but I will be unable
to make that. So if there is some way I can voice my opinion and
experiences on this issue, I would be greatly appreciative. I have
been
unable to make meetings etc due to work and school.

I still feel that I would not be writing this email if I had a full
cage
in my car. I am including a few pictures of my car so you can see how
bad the accident was. Let me know if there is anything more I can do
about this. And I thank you again for all the work you have done for
this. Hopefully all your work is not in vain. Thank you again, and I
hope to hear from you soon.

Sincerely
Ross W. Wessner

[RX-Midget]

Was this incident during a racing event or a street accident? Looks like a roll over in grass/soft ground. Was there any contact with any other objects?

[Rick Kase]

Ross
I would be very interested in exploring the statement that you would not be here if you had a full cage. If there had been a cage are you saying that there would have been more damage in the drivers area?
The damage area seems to be mostly confined to the rear (the photos are not complete) there is an area of damage to the right front fender.
The photos also show that the roll bar and rear of the car seem to already meet the cage standard. It is the front of the car that was not damaged to the extent that a cage (added to what is already present)would have made a differecne either way.
Remember that the standard for looking at a vehicle after a crash to determine what level of injury was sustained or if the injury would have been prevented is - did the drivers seat area sustain crushing damage or intrusion. In this case the safety system present did its job the driver (If properly restrained in the drivers seat) survived.
Please try not to make statements of what would have happened if this or that did or did not happen. Please let that to the professionals.

Rick Kase

[JekylandHyde]

Brian, this happened on the street. He hit a tree or a pole right behind the driver's area.

Rick, from what I understand, Ross's statement about not being here if he had a cage is based on the injuries he incurred in this incident. His injuries were from his head coming into contact with the car, not from an external object intruding.

With a cage, his impact would have been harder.

Keep in mind, this was on the street, OEM belts and no helmet.
This is one of the big reasons the "street car" drivers are reluctant to install full cages.

[Tim Royer]

Hi all,

Hi Jeff, was he wearing that 5 point harness I see in the picture?

[svann]

Exactly right. No street driven car should have a full cage without full harness and helmet being used. You have to have the complete system.

[JekylandHyde]

Hi all,
Hi Jeff, was he wearing that 5 point harness I see in the picture?

I do not know what belts he was using at the time of the crash.

[RX-Midget]

Brian, this happened on the street. He hit a tree or a pole right behind the driver's area.

I can see that the car had an impact behind the left side door, but the impact doesn't look to be any type of intrusion or major damage to the area. I don't know if the left rear suspension was ripped off by the hit or by the roll over.

I also noticed that the left side glass is in tact. I'm not sure what Ross hit his head on, but it wasn’t the side glass and his seat is forward from the roll bar.

It looked very much like the roll over my father had when he got t-boned in his Ranger. The truck rolled 2/3 of the way over while in the air and landed on the right side a-pillar of the cab. There was really no intrusion from the wreck due to the rolling action that disapated the energy slowly over 200'. The good part was that it landed on its wheels when it was over.




I agree that the best way to use a cage on the street is to wear the 5-6 pt harness to keep you from flopping around. Some states my require the stock 3 pt. belt to also be used to make it all DOT legal - just buckle it over the harness.

[dlascoskie]

I agree that the best way to use a cage on the street is to wear the 5-6 pt harness to keep you from flopping around. Some states my require the stock 3 pt. belt to also be used to make it all DOT legal - just buckle it over the harness.

This is exactly why I don't want to have to be required to put a cage in a street car that I race. How many of you have full cages in your street car/daily driver?

[RX-Midget]

Is the resistance due to having to wear a 5-6 pt harness on the street?

My Midget is not a daily driver, but I do drive it on the street and have logged a few thousand miles using the 5pt harness. The cam-lock presents no problem for me, so I'm not sure why that would be a reason to forego roll cages?

Besides, the harness can clip in and out of the car using the approved forged eye-bolts and backing plates so in 5 min you can be back to the stock 3pt system for the drive home from an event. In fact the whole upper halo and front section of the cage can be unbolted as previously mentioned (the GCR has build requirements listed) and driven as a roll bar only car on the street and then bolt the front section in for the hills.

[dlascoskie]

The inconvenience of hopping over a sidebar, banging my shift leg on the down tube, strapping on the 5 pointer along with the oem belt, and all the creaks and squeaks and vibrations that go along with the full cage in a street car that I drive every single day, just so I can run a few races in a street prepared class a few times a year at events that cost over $100 to run in but offer no monetary reward for winning. That's the crux of it, at least.

[driftonite]

Using a 5 pt harness on the street is illegal. The harness is designed to give a bit in an impact to absorb some of the shock. OEM seatbelts do not give. I understand that you are required to use OEM seatbelts while driving on public roads.

[Steve Tumolo]

Jeff,

Maybe you should check the facts before you make a statement such as,"Keep in mind, this was on the street, OEM belts and no helmet". You can see the belts in the picture so I venture to guess he was not using OEM belts. Maybe I am wrong,but maybe I am not.


Dan,

As a matter of fact a cage would REDUCE the rattles and squeaks that are in a Mustang chassis. My '85 was a complete rattle trap without the cage. And that was an '85! Your Modified FOX platformed SN95 is already 40% more stiff and rattle free than mine was. My car handled completely differently after I put the cage in.

[JekylandHyde]

Is the resistance due to having to wear a 5-6 pt harness on the street?

Not for me. My resistance (no, refusal) is having added bars around my unhelmeted head. 3-pt or 5-pt harness does not make a difference in that concern for me.

Maybe you should check the facts before you make a statement such as,"Keep in mind, this was on the street, OEM belts and no helmet".

Yes, I agree. I should not have made the statement as a "fact."
My mistake.

Whether or not it was OEM 3-pt belts or a 5-point does little to sway my feelings on this incident. It's mute point for me.

[Tim Royer]

Hi all,

Yep, the only noise I get from my cage is the foam rubbing on the interior plastic around the front windshield. I noticed more when I first installed it but now I guess I tuned it out.

[Matt Rowe]

Jeff, if your are concerned about your unhelmeted head striking a cage you should also be equally concerned about it striking the roll bar. In my incident my helmeted head bounced off two bars. The one running between the B and A pillar AND the roll bar behind and to the right of me. Keep in mind that even loosely belted in place I could NOT intentionally get my helmet to contact the roll bar. Yet I can distinctly remember both contacts and the hit to the roll bar was the rebound.

We certainly agree on one point that even restrained with a five point belt your head (and other body parts) are likely to move far in excess of what you think you will hit. But, using that logic almost all street driven bar equipped cars already have that risk. Putting a cage in would increase the number of bars and therefore increase the chances IF a street incident occur but the risk is already there.

[JekylandHyde]

Jeff, if your are concerned about your unhelmeted head striking a cage you should also be equally concerned about it striking the roll bar.

100% agreed. I've never stated that I am not concerned about the dangers of my bar. It is very much a concern of mine and it is factored into the level of risk I am comfortable with taking.

As the owner of a performance car, I have to decide what level of
safety equipment and what level of risk I am comfortable with.

That is my prerogative. When further equipment is mandated
by various sanctioning bodies, then I just merely have to decide
where I want to spend my money to race.