One of our team members did not compete at Giant's, but our alternate did. I was under the impression that the alternate is used when all 5 members are not present.
Sorry if this a a newbie question as this is my first time on a team. The only reference I saw to this on the points page was "one substitute is allowed per year." Hos does that work? Does the team pick which event the one substitute fills in at?
Alternates are only used if, a regular driver can not run the rest of the series(health reasons, crashed car, blown engine, etc.).
I expect that the PHA will do some changes over the off season to the team championship rules.
I would like to have some input on what changes that could be made.
My ideas are just 6 members with no alternates with a $10 increase in team entry fee, allow a max. of 2 drivers per class.
Other possible changes could be aline the points with the class championship with bonuses awarded for class records and running all of the events.
In past years the alternate was used at any event at which all regular team members could not attend. It did not cause the original regular member to not be a member and it did not put the alternate in as the regular member for the rest of the year.
I do not remember any changes being done to the team rules since I was points keeper.
It is interesting that whoever is giving you this info has no idea how the team points were administrated in past years. They did not do it! They do not know how it was done! I did it. I am only saying the way you want to do it is a change from previous years and any change should be done at a regular meeting of PHA.
Gentlemen: I hope to shed some light on the apparent discord over the interpretation of the rules relating to the team competition... Having been the Secretary of PHA for a number of years, and being an obsessive who keeps records (including the mtg. minutes), I offer the following information gleaned from past PHA minutes (which are available for perusal): I will offer them as chronologically as I can...
1992: In the annual letter dated 3/12/92 sent by then NEDIV SOLO I Steward Lynne DeHart to SOLO I competitors there is NO MENTION of a Team Championship.
1993: In a similar letter (undated) sent by SOLO I Steward Lynne DeHart prior to the start of the season there appears the following: " This year there will be a PHA Team Competition. Teams will consist of 5 members (maximum 1 driver per class)... (what follows is a description of the points structure- NO MENTION of either a SUBSTITUTE or Bonus Points for competing in all events).
1994: I have no minutes that I can find that directly refer to the team competition other than a motion made at the Dec. '94 mtg with reference to the '95 season that "the series points structure remain the same for 1995." NO MENTION of a "substitute".
1995: at the Feb. '95 mtg the minutes state: "Team Championship rules reviewed and accepted with the following changes/additions: 1. Teams consist of 5 members fom any region... 2. Teams can have a driver SUBSTITUTION during the year but subs points count only after substitution not from before. 3. Substitution must be in writing and given to the pointskeeper (Bickel)." THIS IS THE FIRST MENTION OF A SUBSTITUTION!
1996: the annual letter from Lynne before the season states: "1 point per event (if you run all of them)..."Team consists of 5 members. Only one member per class, and ONE SUBSTITUTION IS ALLOWED PER YEAR" (Points keeper for the year was Terry Zechman)
1997: There were NO changes in the points structure for '97..."and one substitution is allowed per year." (Zechman-points keeper)
1998: The only change for '98 was a motion made and accepted "to drop the bonus points for attending every event."(Zechman Pointskeeper?)
1999: Points structure remains the same except that the bonus points for attending every event was reinstated.
2000: In the May 2000 issue of UPHILL 2000 Pointskeeper Richard Kase states concerning the Team Points Structure: "Team consists of five (5) members. Only one (1) member per class, and one SUBSTITUTION is allowed per year."
2001 and 2002: I am not aware that there were any changes in the Team Points Structure for these years
2003: Again Pointskeeper Kase states: "Teams consist of five (5) members. Only one (1) member per class, and only one substitute is allowed per year." NOTE the change from "substitution" to "substitute".
2004, 2005, 2006: I am not aware of any changes to the Team Points Structure...Richard Sweigart became Pointskeeper in 2005.
What appears to have happened is a difference in terminology- the use of first the word "ALTERNATE" or "SUBSTITUTE" instead of "SUBSTITUTION"-as it originally appears in written records, and the interpretation of the phrase "ONLY ONE SUBSTITUTE IS ALLOWED PER YEAR"...(instead of "ONLY ONE SUBSTITUTION..." as it originally was)
My recollection of the original concept of "substitution" was to allow a team who lost a member for the year-for whatever reason-to replace that member with a "substitution" (i.e. a driver substitute)-only one- for the remainder of the year- hence the statement that his points count only after the substitution.
By using the word "Alternate" or "substitute" instead of "substitution" the idea of a "6th team member who can "fill in" for any absent team member appears to make sense; BUT that was NOT the original intent as I recollect.
Unfortunately, when rules are not spelled out in detail, there is an opportunity for different interpretations...and this is what has happened here...no where does the word "alternate" appear in any written version of the "Team Points Structure" only the word "substitution"(originally) or "substitute"(recently) and then "only one substitution (or substitute) ...per year" and this appears to be subject to different interpretations.
The obvious way to resolve this difference of interpretation amicably is to call a meeting (possibly at one of the events to be held) and get an official interpretation of the team points structure as it relates to what the term "subsitution" or "substitute" means and when and how it applies.
It is my opinion that a substitute is just that: the team member on the bench. The substitute plays as often as necessary in a season, but only when the starting line up is not complete. No back fitting points, just what is earned when driving for the team. If the sub turns out to be a better points earner than the starting team, too bad....realign next season....the sub's points should only be counted when a member of the original team is not able to make a timed run for the weekend.
I agree that a quick, if possible, meeting should be convened at Rose Valley, to clarify and solidfy the rules.
A bit of additional comment on my previous thoughts on sub/alternate team members: Last year, I was the alternate after Thor had his incident and could not drive for the rest of the year. That was in accordance with the current rules....I drove for the rest of the year. But, since I was not charged the team fee, I was not awarded a team jacket (I bought one because they are really nice and I was, for the latter half of the year, an active member of the winning team).
So, my recommendations for future rule changes:
1. whatever the fee may be, charge the sub/alternate as well.
2. make that alternate eligible for a team award if his team is successful
(do not even get into whether or not, or how often, he/she competed - a team is a team).
3. Change the number of the team to 6 members with the "first team" of 5 scoring for that event.
This could get complicated so lets keep the changes simple and clear. Meanwhile, let us all play by the rules that are currently in effect.
Some have indicated that the team championship rules in the past were different than those currently published. This may be correct. It is also correct to conclude that rules should not be changed unless PHA authorizes them. For the 2004, 2005 and 2006 season our web sites clearly states: "one substitute is allowed per year". Furthermore, the "PHA Team Performance Applications" which all participating drivers completed clearly states: "one substitution is allowed per year". In simple terms, an alternate's points should only appear once during the season on the published team point's table. In my view, it is not prudent to change the published rules midway through the season. The published rules need to be adhered to for the 2006 season. An appropriate agenda item for our PHA meeting in November would begin the process of resolving this issue for future seasons.
With that said, I serve the desires of the PHA membership. If you disagree with the above, I encourage your responses.
Tom Knorr
I agree that rules should not be changed mid-stream.
Maybe it's just me, but the current wording does not seem clear.
Is the substitution "once" as in for one event and one event only?
If so, does the team get to choose which event?
Does it have to be declared prior to the race happening?
... or is it meant that the substitute enters into the points once for another person and stays in for the rest of the season? (as in the Pitmans last year).
Again, I apologize if I am being a "newb" but this is the first time I am paying attention to any of this and I just want to make sure I understand.
Frankly, I'm just happy to be playing the game and it's all fun wherever we place.
As I stated in a previous posting: the original intent of allowing a driver substitution was to allow a team to replace a team member who, for whatever reason, is unable to complete the season with a "substitution"- only one substitution allowed per year and only those points won AFTER the substitution by the substitute count towards the team total. There have been no actions on the part of pha as a body to change these rules.
Therefore, the substitution of John Pitman for Thor- who could no longer compete in '05 was appropriate and followed the existing rules.
The use of the word "substitute" in place of "substitution" in '03 and the subsequent replacement of "substitute" with "alternate" appears to have led to the misconception that a substitute or alternate can replace an absent team member when needed. This is not what the current existing rules state! The existing rules state that a team consists of 5 members- not 6 as an alternate would indicate, and that there can be 1 substitution per year- as would happen if an original team member had to be replaced. That was the intent of the rule pertaining to a driver substitution when it was enacted and remains the rule today- pending same change through the pha body. there has been no action to change this rule to date, so, pending a change in the rules, let us adhere to them.
The rules as stated on the entry forms do not say "substitution", it says "substitute". (Why, how or when it changed, who knows, probably a typo that no one caught)
My point is:
"one substitution is allowed per year" means you can do it once.
"one substitute is allowed per year" does not mean that you can only do it once but means that you can have only one person doing the substituting.
I think we need to decide how we are going to interpet the rules as they are wriiten now with "substitute" instead of "substitution" and then at the end of this year or the beginning of next year look at rewriting them so as to be less ambiguous.
Actually, there is one other situation that has come up this year. The Danko Gas team has 5 members and no alternate/substitue listed. No problem so far. At Spring Weatherly 2 of the drivers ran in the same class. Who do you give the points to? I have no problem with how Rich did the points, giving them to the driver originally listed for that class. But, now where in the rules does it state that you can not change classes as long as you only have one per class. In this instance, giving the points to the orginal the original driver gave them 2 points. If you give them to the other driver it would be 5 points. Something else that needs to be claified.
I'm a new-b like Jeff and I had similar questions. This discussion is great, and hopefully an official interpretation can be decided at the next event to help clarify the current rules. I also agree with Jeff, I’m just happy to be playing the game (but it is more fun to win ).
Because someone may have made a "typo" and no one corrected it does not mean that the rule changes...the original rule stands-the "typo" was a mistake. If someone makes a mistake that doesn't mean that the mistake stands and the original rule no longer is in effect. If we want a different rule pertaining to a "substitution, change the rule by the proper method. If not, why bother to have rules; make them up as we go along. We cannot continue to ignore the rules when we choose to, but cite them when they suit us.
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