I'm just waiting to be asked to not show up anymore without first installing a cage.jerdeitzel wrote:I thought STO was no longer a class?
Be prepared to have a heart attack reading the SU rules. It's suggested to have safety equipment equal to your times. But, SM minimum is all that is required. (Ducking, roll bar only)
ITE/Classing of street legal "swapped" cars
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Re: ITE/Classing of street legal "swapped" cars
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Re: ITE/Classing of street legal "swapped" cars
I stand corrected on a couple issues. The STO class was never formed. STU is for up to 3.5 litres 6 cylinder. Anything else needs approval. Kind of sounds dumb since they were referring to race series like American Iron and Pony Car! But they were saying submit your request and we will think about it. What about Mustang Challenge, blah, blah, blahla?
You know, its kind of like trying to interpret the constitution. What were the fore fathers thinking about? Well, the forefathers for PHA Hillclimbing are alive and still kicking.
So, Jeremy, What were you thinking?
I was thinking about maintaining the integrity of Club Racing and the Improved Touring class. We were saying about being a race series with some other organization. Not a catch all Solo, Time trial, you name it club for whatever you brung to run it type class. That was not the intention of SCCA National, Regional or any level of club racing. It's not just about having some class to run it. It was supposed to be a race series with specific rules, name recognition, like kind and some kind of mutual challenge. Pitting cars of the same or sometimes different manufactures but on the same playing field. You can't be allowed to enter with a Dellara chassis and a rocket engine with side thrusters because nobody said you can't do that in this class.
I wont fight the rest of you who want unlimited modifications in any car or class you want to make up for time trials. It's bad enough PHA doesn't enforce Club racing class rules. I just want to see Club Racing classes maintained to some level of original intent.
But I'm open to discuss it further if you like.
Dave Y
You know, its kind of like trying to interpret the constitution. What were the fore fathers thinking about? Well, the forefathers for PHA Hillclimbing are alive and still kicking.
So, Jeremy, What were you thinking?
I was thinking about maintaining the integrity of Club Racing and the Improved Touring class. We were saying about being a race series with some other organization. Not a catch all Solo, Time trial, you name it club for whatever you brung to run it type class. That was not the intention of SCCA National, Regional or any level of club racing. It's not just about having some class to run it. It was supposed to be a race series with specific rules, name recognition, like kind and some kind of mutual challenge. Pitting cars of the same or sometimes different manufactures but on the same playing field. You can't be allowed to enter with a Dellara chassis and a rocket engine with side thrusters because nobody said you can't do that in this class.
I wont fight the rest of you who want unlimited modifications in any car or class you want to make up for time trials. It's bad enough PHA doesn't enforce Club racing class rules. I just want to see Club Racing classes maintained to some level of original intent.
But I'm open to discuss it further if you like.
Dave Y
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Re: ITE/Classing of street legal "swapped" cars
If you want some info contact the SCCA clubs from around the country that run ITE and see what their rules are. I did this and I would say that about 60 percent of them had rules that allowed any NASA ST cars. (Not NE region tho) So, I personally don't think it's in bad form or against the SCCA's intent for road racing. In fact, it seems to me that over the years they have been trying to accommodate more NASA cars in their classes with rule changes. With the state of racing in general it's not hard to see why.
That is my last comment on this. You guys can figure it out from here. If anything good can come of this, its that I would highly suggest to anyone that gets s chance to run with other groups to do so) See how things are done elsewhere and always keep an open mind to change. Like the moto SCCA has been adopting. Make it easy, make it fun!
Dave you say you run with NASA.
That is my last comment on this. You guys can figure it out from here. If anything good can come of this, its that I would highly suggest to anyone that gets s chance to run with other groups to do so) See how things are done elsewhere and always keep an open mind to change. Like the moto SCCA has been adopting. Make it easy, make it fun!
Dave you say you run with NASA.
#88 SM
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Re: ITE/Classing of street legal "swapped" cars
On my previous post I said I had to make a couple corrections. Besides no STO class, the rules in ST exclude cross manufacturer engine swaps.
So the way our current ITE rules are written, the Pro series cars over 3.5L have no class to run in except SPO and Specials.
We might have to rethink or restate the PHA ITE rules.
Still collecting data. More later.
Dave Y
So the way our current ITE rules are written, the Pro series cars over 3.5L have no class to run in except SPO and Specials.
We might have to rethink or restate the PHA ITE rules.
Still collecting data. More later.
Dave Y
Re: ITE/Classing of street legal "swapped" cars
It's kind of interesting that people think a car with an engine swap does not fit the "intent of the rules", when the rules actually don't say that at all, and the classes from other clubs that can run in ITE do allow it.
That's going to be really hard on a new driver, who reads our rules, and figures out what class they can build to, but doesn't actually know anyone here. They are going to now have to understand intent???
It's sort of the reverse of the "creative interpretation of the rules" that SCCA warns against
It's even more interesting to hear from the people who wrote the rules when they tell us what the intent was, since the car in question was exactly what the rule was built for.
Regardless, from what I am reading, the car not only met the literal interpretation, it also met the intent.
I don't personally have a stake in ITE, and if PHA decides to change the rules or eliminate the class all together, I'd refrain from voting. I agree that we have other places for a car like this to run, with the specials being a catchall class. But the fact of the matter is that ITE does exist as one of our classes, and the rules are defined. As long as it does, we should allow cars that meet the rules to run there.
Grace
That's going to be really hard on a new driver, who reads our rules, and figures out what class they can build to, but doesn't actually know anyone here. They are going to now have to understand intent???
It's sort of the reverse of the "creative interpretation of the rules" that SCCA warns against
It's even more interesting to hear from the people who wrote the rules when they tell us what the intent was, since the car in question was exactly what the rule was built for.
Regardless, from what I am reading, the car not only met the literal interpretation, it also met the intent.
I don't personally have a stake in ITE, and if PHA decides to change the rules or eliminate the class all together, I'd refrain from voting. I agree that we have other places for a car like this to run, with the specials being a catchall class. But the fact of the matter is that ITE does exist as one of our classes, and the rules are defined. As long as it does, we should allow cars that meet the rules to run there.
Grace
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Re: ITE/Classing of street legal "swapped" cars
Just like the old days. The more I try to explain and clarify, the deeper in trouble I get and turn friends into enemies. I'll take one more swing at it.
The key terms are Series and Marque Clubs. Examples of series outside SCCA would be American Iron, 944 cup, E30 cup. They are rules for classing but more important a series of events to have like prepared cars compete on some kind of level playing field.
NASA's ST (Street Touring, sorry I didn't differentiate the SCCA ST which means Super Touring earlier) is a classification "system" meant to categorize in some fashion, cars that don't fit or weren't built to any other specific class structure. That makes it a Specials class with several sub categories. I wouldn't call that a Race Series.
Perhaps there are several SCCA Regions that are accepting the NASA ST rules as ITE, but that doesn't make it right. Although Cameron was well prepared with a roll cage, some of those opposed to our interpretation think we need to include roll bar only cars in ITE. That's a real stretch of the imagination.
Should PHA modify other classes or create another to allow cross manufacturer engine swaps? I'm not getting into that conversation at all.
IMOHO
Dave Y
The key terms are Series and Marque Clubs. Examples of series outside SCCA would be American Iron, 944 cup, E30 cup. They are rules for classing but more important a series of events to have like prepared cars compete on some kind of level playing field.
NASA's ST (Street Touring, sorry I didn't differentiate the SCCA ST which means Super Touring earlier) is a classification "system" meant to categorize in some fashion, cars that don't fit or weren't built to any other specific class structure. That makes it a Specials class with several sub categories. I wouldn't call that a Race Series.
Perhaps there are several SCCA Regions that are accepting the NASA ST rules as ITE, but that doesn't make it right. Although Cameron was well prepared with a roll cage, some of those opposed to our interpretation think we need to include roll bar only cars in ITE. That's a real stretch of the imagination.
Should PHA modify other classes or create another to allow cross manufacturer engine swaps? I'm not getting into that conversation at all.
IMOHO
Dave Y
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Re: ITE/Classing of street legal "swapped" cars
Dave the whole problem here is we are listening to your opinion on what constitutes a "real" class or series. You do realize that American Iron has 3 classes that are all HP/weight. So, the car's vary widely in their speed. In fact, AIX is unlimited HP and aero mods! (paging Mr Evil) The fastest production car in NASA happens to be a AIX car. Just because you like the name American iron, it's okay? How is it different then German touring car or ST for that matter? Many AIX cars run ST because the car counts are usually higher.
NASA also runs German touring car. Kendricks car is legal for that. It has that nice ring to the name that should appease your qualification of a "series"
FWIW, NASA ST is also called Super touring. And folks do actually build their car's specifically for that series. Im sure that is unfathomable.
I fully concede that allowing tube frame race cars in ITE is not what i wanted. And according the the rules of NASA ST they can run. That is something that should be addressed. Keep it for production cars only! Or just toss the class.
Uggg, trying to swim away but i keep getting sucked in!
If anyone want to read some of the discussion from 2009 when we were coming up with the rules here it is. http://www.pahillclimb.org/phpBB/viewto ... f=7&t=1840
NASA also runs German touring car. Kendricks car is legal for that. It has that nice ring to the name that should appease your qualification of a "series"
FWIW, NASA ST is also called Super touring. And folks do actually build their car's specifically for that series. Im sure that is unfathomable.
I fully concede that allowing tube frame race cars in ITE is not what i wanted. And according the the rules of NASA ST they can run. That is something that should be addressed. Keep it for production cars only! Or just toss the class.
Uggg, trying to swim away but i keep getting sucked in!
If anyone want to read some of the discussion from 2009 when we were coming up with the rules here it is. http://www.pahillclimb.org/phpBB/viewto ... f=7&t=1840
#88 SM
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Re: ITE/Classing of street legal "swapped" cars
Hmm, still not getting notifications of replies. Oh well, my last reply on this:
Unfortunately, this is a discussion that should be had in person and not on this board. There are too many things to discuss and I don't feel it's possible to cover them all in 1 post or it'll crash the site. This is page 2 in the thread.
All I know is that the ITE rule set is very clear. Intent or not, the clarity is there. If you build a car or enter a car into that class, you MUST be able to prove it's ITE legal. We all know where the ITE rules are now. If you're in ITE, pay close attention to the rules b) and c)
This is a fun series. However, if you accidentally or purposely build/modify a car outside class rules, it's not a competitor or official's fault if it's noticed and you're asked to move out of the class. And it isn't the PHA's, Region's or SCCA's fault if your car doesn't comply at all. If you want to race in the series, build/modify to fit the series.
Unfortunately, this is a discussion that should be had in person and not on this board. There are too many things to discuss and I don't feel it's possible to cover them all in 1 post or it'll crash the site. This is page 2 in the thread.
All I know is that the ITE rule set is very clear. Intent or not, the clarity is there. If you build a car or enter a car into that class, you MUST be able to prove it's ITE legal. We all know where the ITE rules are now. If you're in ITE, pay close attention to the rules b) and c)
This is a fun series. However, if you accidentally or purposely build/modify a car outside class rules, it's not a competitor or official's fault if it's noticed and you're asked to move out of the class. And it isn't the PHA's, Region's or SCCA's fault if your car doesn't comply at all. If you want to race in the series, build/modify to fit the series.
RIP Joe, my friend.
Must go faster!!!!
Must go faster!!!!
Re: ITE/Classing of street legal "swapped" cars
FYI Street Unlimited has 7 entry's (over 10% of total entries) in next weeks Dragon hillclimb.
https://www.motorsportreg.com/index.cfm ... exxU9m9LCT
Edit - make that 10 entries. Seems like a class thats very relevant in todays world.
https://www.motorsportreg.com/index.cfm ... exxU9m9LCT
Edit - make that 10 entries. Seems like a class thats very relevant in todays world.
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Re: ITE/Classing of street legal "swapped" cars
Congrats to Cameron on his King of the hill at the Dragon hillclimb. I would agree that SU is a very relevant class in todays world. Something to think about!Heavy85 wrote:FYI Street Unlimited has 7 entry's (over 10% of total entries) in next weeks Dragon hillclimb.
https://www.motorsportreg.com/index.cfm ... exxU9m9LCT
Edit - make that 10 entries. Seems like a class thats very relevant in todays world.
Results
http://ccrscca.com/results/ctd9/ctd9raw.pdf
#88 SM
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Re: ITE/Classing of street legal "swapped" cars
Maybe we should let these guys know that this is not a "real" series. (according to Dave's definition of intent) lol
http://www.nasaforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=130129
http://www.nasaforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=130129
#88 SM
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Re: ITE/Classing of street legal "swapped" cars
There you have it! All Cameron has to do is submit his form to NASA and show he is classified for the ST2 "series" and that is official. He qualifies for ITE. Under these circumstances, I would suggest having the full "boiler plate" documentation on hand.
IMOHO
dy
IMOHO
dy