Car classification question

[Heavy85]

Car in question is a 240Z with a V8 swap a other significant mods but still has current plates and insurance so is street legal. Although Im in Illinois, have been running the Chasing the Dragon hillclimb in North Carolina for the last couple years. Im considering the long haul up for the Duryea event this year and am trying to figure out classing. Down South I run the 'SU' regional class but dont see it listed in the 2014 PHA info. See here:

http://www.sedivracing.org/TT/SEDIV_TT_ClassRules12.pdf

I also only have a rollbar which I believe limits SPO or other more open classes. Having said all that, where would I end up running in your events if I can make it out?

Thanks
Cameron

[Mark Aubele]

SPO. Should be an allowance for rollbars for TT cars. Can't remember if this exact situation has arisen, but this is how I myself interpreted the ruleset for cars that are still "street cars" with cross-manufacturer engine swaps. SM or SSM would be a more natural choice but the SCCA doesn't allow cross-manufacturer engine swaps for some unknown reason.

[Rick Kase]

Cross engine manufacturer swaps as mentioned are not allowed. PHA allows it but it bumps the car into Special (1 2 or three by engine size).
However all Specials require a full cage.

[Heavy85]

Sooooo there's no home for me in PHA? Guess that saves the 13 hr tow to get there ....

[jerdeitzel]

Don't you love how this works. You are able to run an SCCA hillclimb in the south with just a roll bar but, you are not allowed to in the PHA. Actually , ITE would have been a good fit since it is a class used for most other NASA, NARRA type cars.( yours would have fit fine) But, i caved in to Dave when we were writing the rules to say that a cage is required in that class too. (ugh)

FWIW, Cameron and his car are plenty experienced enough on the hills. You guys are going to miss a great driver/car combo just ask Ted!

The event organizer could allow this car to run if it wanted too!

[Matt Rowe]

Unfortunately as others pointed out the combination as you describe it doesn't fit any existing GCR or Solo class due to the cross manufacturer engine swap. That means you need to rely on "regional" classes but more importantly because of the extreme potential once you cross into the territory of any engine in any chassis a full cage is required for any PHA event.

It sounds like an interesting car and while I would love to see it I don't see how it fits into the rules without the addition of the extra bars to make a 6 point cage. Unfortunately that is the risk in building something unique. Of course, you could also try talking one of the SEDIV drivers that makes the trip up into letting you co drive their car at Duryea and that would save you the tow as well.

[Mark Aubele]

I just don't get this. I have personally been up Duryea well under two minutes in a Z06 and a '95 Mustang, Dan Reed has been even faster in a fox bodied Mustang, all three cars with bolt in rollbars only. And I could make 800 rwhp, legally, and run a rollbar in SSM or SM. But this gentleman can't run his car with us because it happens to not have a Nissan engine in it. Completely stupid. Let's just keep turning people away until we have no one to race with.

[Matt Rowe]

I'm not going to rehash what is literally decades of debate on roll bars and cages here. My response above is based on the rules that PHA has collectively agreed to operate under. While we all try to be as friendly and inclusive as practical everyone acknowledges that some levels of safety equipments are required and that is always going to create some type of hurdle that potentially limits participation.
Similar discussions happened before our time over helmets, seatbelts and any of our other safety minimums. At the end of the day there is always a minimum requirement to participate, the current roll bar/cage requirements today are an agreed to compromise based on everyone's input.

[jerdeitzel]

I can understand that rules are rules and this is what the PHA wants. But, to say that the "potential" is what is the determining factor in what requires a roll cage vs bar is simply wrong! When you can buy cars from the dealer that have 650hp and could easily fit in a class that only requires a roll bar then what is the harm in letting something like this follow those same rules?

Maybe in the future, the PHA should look at making a class like SU (street unlimited) that the south uses. You could get rid of SM and SSM and let them both run there. Its really a perfect class IMO.

http://www.sedivracing.org/TT/SEDIV_TT_ClassRules12.pdf

[Heavy85]

Sooo I bought a tube bender in prep for conversion to a cage over the winter. Plan to build to Pikes Peak Open class rules. What class would I then end up in and therefore what would be the other safety requirements of that class? Things like scattershield, fuel cell, fire system, etc? I will eventually have these but not in 2015.

[georgebowland]

Cameron,
You are obviously a very good hillclimber and car builder. I suggest you look at your situation from a different perspective. Although the PHA has some rules that differ from other regions/organizations, they have some features that make running their events worth any work you have to do this winter.
1. They have the best hills in America.
2. They have the best event organization you can find.
3. They have a great group of drivers that are generally careful and always willing to help each other.
4. They have the best workers in any racing venue, being both capable and having the same level of love of hills as the drivers.
5. They have a great safety record.
6. They have very high community support at all of their venues, ensuring the continuation of the series.
7. They are so driver friendly that you will soon be spoiled for any other series.
Spend some of those cold Illinois winter nights bringing your car up to PHA requirements, and you will be rewarded beyond your highest expectations.
George

[TKnorr]

The topic is "Car clarification question." This was not the place for a discussion regarding the rules and we don't need comments like "completely stupid." This issue has been resolved by PHA by democratic means. We do not do business on the forum; PHA business is done at three meetings per year. Move on.
Tom Knorr, PHA President

[Heavy85]

Thanks for the kind words and advice George. Sounds too good to pass up even with the 14 or so hour drive. That is the basic plan just trying to figure out what I need and then add to winter plans as required. I found discussion where
SPO isnt used anymore in PHA and debate on the definition of ITE but nothing definitive. All the other classes are very prescriptive which kicks out engine swaps. Advice here?

[Rich Sweigart]

Your car is in SPO, STO is the class that got the axe by SCCA.

[jerdeitzel]

Cameron, To answer your question as best as i can with taking into account the rules that the PHA follow. You will be a perfect fit for ITE. Which means you don't need a fuel cell. You will need at least a "Improved touring legal cage". Which, is a pretty simple common design. You will be much wiser to look at cage rules from MW/pikes peak for all the little details. lol

HIt me up if you have any question.

Page 38 has the rules. Basically any car that fits into NASA TT series can run under here with a IT spec cage. Your car is a TT1,2, or 3 car in NASA so having the rule book is pretty much having a dyno/hp sheet printed out. http://stcscca.files.wordpress.com/2014 ... ruary-2014

You are safe going this route. There may be changes to the supps this coming season but that shouldn't effect ITE either way since its a specific written class.

[Heavy85]

Thanks Jeremy. ITE sounds like a good plan then. Link is 404 not found - have a good one?

[mckee]

Cameron,

I'd like to echo George Bowland's comments: The racing and the racers of PHA drew me to regularly encounter 7 to 12 hour tows from New England, rarely missing an event for 10 years. I could have competed much closer to home but PHA made that much off a difference to me.

Illness and slow car rebuilding have kept me away for the last few years but with luck I'll be back making those long tows again. By the way both of my cars ran in classes that did not require cages - both cars had full cages (car goes faster with a cage). Looking forward to the ground shaking when your Datsun goes by.

All the best,

Bob D'Amore

[jerdeitzel]

Car's do go faster with a cage. . You also wreck more often tho. I started pushing way harder once i felt safer. Not sure if that was a good thing or not.