Hello and running a Miata with only a roll bar?
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Hello and running a Miata with only a roll bar?
Hello all!
Some of you guys know me but I'm guessing most of you don't. So I'll start with a brief intro and then get onto my question. My name's Keith Kennedy, age 32, and I'm far from new to hillclimbing and racing in general. I've been wrapped up in Stage/Performance Rallying for the past 12 years or so but I've also been around Duryea since I was old enough to remember. My experience with hillclimbing is working Duryea and Pagoda from about age 12 until 20, and since then a mix of mainly spectating, but occasionally competing in the Rally Class. I've been up to Weatherly a few times to spectate, but honestly that's all. I'm at point now where Rally has become too expensive and time consuming so I've decided I want to get into hillclimbing. The two forms of racing can't be more different, but at the same time, how can you beat 8 events within about a 3 hour drive of Reading for about the same total in entry fees as one national level rally!
Last year a purchased a Triumph spitfire with the intent of turning it into a hillclimb car. The person I bought it from had started the process somewhat before deciding he just had too many cars and not enough time. Long story short I've been suffering from some crazy health issues relating to my sinuses which have not allowed me to make any progress on the car, but I was really hoping to be able to run an event or two this year. (I had surgery on my sinuses last month so my health should now be golden!) Which brings me to the real questions:
I recently purchased a 1990 Mazda Miata for a summer/fun car and already have plans on putting a real roll bar in it for the safety of everyday driving. That got me thinking that maybe I could use this car to run Pagoda and Duryea just to get my feet wet again. So the question then is, is there a class that I can run a bone stock Miata in with only a roll bar? I downloaded the GCRs and the time trials section but it's so much to sort through I thought I'd come and ask the experts!
Thanks,
Keith Kennedy
Some of you guys know me but I'm guessing most of you don't. So I'll start with a brief intro and then get onto my question. My name's Keith Kennedy, age 32, and I'm far from new to hillclimbing and racing in general. I've been wrapped up in Stage/Performance Rallying for the past 12 years or so but I've also been around Duryea since I was old enough to remember. My experience with hillclimbing is working Duryea and Pagoda from about age 12 until 20, and since then a mix of mainly spectating, but occasionally competing in the Rally Class. I've been up to Weatherly a few times to spectate, but honestly that's all. I'm at point now where Rally has become too expensive and time consuming so I've decided I want to get into hillclimbing. The two forms of racing can't be more different, but at the same time, how can you beat 8 events within about a 3 hour drive of Reading for about the same total in entry fees as one national level rally!
Last year a purchased a Triumph spitfire with the intent of turning it into a hillclimb car. The person I bought it from had started the process somewhat before deciding he just had too many cars and not enough time. Long story short I've been suffering from some crazy health issues relating to my sinuses which have not allowed me to make any progress on the car, but I was really hoping to be able to run an event or two this year. (I had surgery on my sinuses last month so my health should now be golden!) Which brings me to the real questions:
I recently purchased a 1990 Mazda Miata for a summer/fun car and already have plans on putting a real roll bar in it for the safety of everyday driving. That got me thinking that maybe I could use this car to run Pagoda and Duryea just to get my feet wet again. So the question then is, is there a class that I can run a bone stock Miata in with only a roll bar? I downloaded the GCRs and the time trials section but it's so much to sort through I thought I'd come and ask the experts!
Thanks,
Keith Kennedy
Re: Hello and running a Miata with only a roll bar?
Keith,
CSP (C street prepared) is one that comes to mind .
Rich Rock
CSP (C street prepared) is one that comes to mind .
Rich Rock
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Re: Hello and running a Miata with only a roll bar?
Thanks Rich!
Trying to work my way through all the rules has been confusing to say the least.
Keith
Trying to work my way through all the rules has been confusing to say the least.
Keith
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Re: Hello and running a Miata with only a roll bar?
Hi Keith,
There are many classes you could run with just a roll bar! Just find out what class your car fits in from either the Solo rules or GCR and then pick one. CSP really is your best bet IMO tho. All you need is the minimum safety stuff.
Roll bar.
fire ext
fire suit, gloves, shoes, helmet, etc
5 or more point harness
hope to see you out there.
There are many classes you could run with just a roll bar! Just find out what class your car fits in from either the Solo rules or GCR and then pick one. CSP really is your best bet IMO tho. All you need is the minimum safety stuff.
Roll bar.
fire ext
fire suit, gloves, shoes, helmet, etc
5 or more point harness
hope to see you out there.
#88 SM
Mitsubishi evo 8
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Re: Hello and running a Miata with only a roll bar?
I have the same basic question, but my car has mods: can I run with just a roll bar instead of cage?
I have a 2002 Miata with a Hard Dog Hard Core roll bar. I looked at the rules and it sounds like my car might not fit into CSP.
It has:
I also have some plans for interior changes that I have not gotten to.
I have a Sparco racing seat and five point harness to install. I think that I need to get a fire bottle to complete the in car safety equipment.
I would like to run in the Jefferson Circuit event at Summit Point. I am uncomfortable doing a hill climb with just a roll bar.
Does my car fit into any class with just a roll bar?
Thank you
I have a 2002 Miata with a Hard Dog Hard Core roll bar. I looked at the rules and it sounds like my car might not fit into CSP.
It has:
- revalved Billsteins with coilover sleeves and stiffer springs
dual tip muffler that required notching of the bumper
hitch receiver
stiffer front anti-sway bar
removed rear sway bar
simple exterior additions and some factory logos removed
I also have some plans for interior changes that I have not gotten to.
I have a Sparco racing seat and five point harness to install. I think that I need to get a fire bottle to complete the in car safety equipment.
I would like to run in the Jefferson Circuit event at Summit Point. I am uncomfortable doing a hill climb with just a roll bar.
Does my car fit into any class with just a roll bar?
Thank you
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Re: Hello and running a Miata with only a roll bar?
You can run super street mod with just a roll bar. That class is for cars modded beyond SP classes. As long as your head is 2"(I think) under the bar then your good to go.
#88 SM
Mitsubishi evo 8
Mitsubishi evo 8
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Re: Hello and running a Miata with only a roll bar?
As you work your way through the decision process about rear only roll bar vs a roll cage, go to the PHA museum/archives, which can be found in some of these threads or on Facebook. Look at the "Not all fun and games" photography. I know you have been around a while, and are aware that hill climbing is risky, so decide carefully. I will keep my thoughts simple: Install a full cage in anything you wish to hill climb. Yes, you are alone in controlling your destiny in the car...but things (tires, brakes, suspension components) fail under duress, and hill climbing puts great strain on vehicle components.
John Pitman FV95
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Re: Hello and running a Miata with only a roll bar?
I will drive on a track with just a roll bar, but not an actual hill climb. The hill climbs have boulders, trees, and steep drops leading to the the other two, so I would never drive under those conditions without a full cage.FV95 wrote:"Not all fun and games" photography. I know you have been around a while, and are aware that hill climbing is risky, so decide carefully.
I have not driven Jefferson Circuit yet. Is that any more dangerous than a typical track?
I will take a look at SM and try to prepare the car for both Jefferson events next year.
Thanks!
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Re: Hello and running a Miata with only a roll bar?
The Jefferson circuit is about on par with a road circuit for danger. Of course you can get upside down anywhere, but there is decent runoff room around the track. If you make to an event, it the novice instructor will point a couple of places that can bite you. Looking forward to seeing you there.
John Pitman FV95
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Re: Hello and running a Miata with only a roll bar?
Kieth, you might be a little more competitive in SM (Spec Miata) or SSM (Showroom Spec Miata). Since you have the 1.6 motor, you dont' need the restrictor that the later 1.8 requires.
Proctorsilex, it sounds like you could run in CSP or ITA if you don't install the frame stiffener.
Dave Y
Proctorsilex, it sounds like you could run in CSP or ITA if you don't install the frame stiffener.
Dave Y
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Re: Hello and running a Miata with only a roll bar?
Gregor,
It is a great place to spin an MR2.
"Dusty"
It is a great place to spin an MR2.
![Shocked :shock:](./images/smilies/icon_eek.gif)
"Dusty"
Mary Anne Fieux
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1960 SAAB 93F
#1251
1960 SAAB 93F
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Re: Hello and running a Miata with only a roll bar?
Been away from this for a bit on account of it being winter and me enjoying the snow....
To the concerns of Bar vs Cage I am well aware of all the aspects and appreciate the input. I have been around for about 20 years now and have seen just about everything. I'm really only ok with the bar for the miata because of how slow the car is. Did I mention that I don't plan on running anything more than some high performance summer tires? That will help keep the speeds down.
As for Spec Miata vs CSP, I'm not looking to win a class, but to get seat time and road experiance. Rallying and driving an AWD car is a completely different beast with a different set of rules from road racing something RWD.
The Miata has been giving me cooling system issues so I just parked it for the winter. Weather is starting to warm up so by the end of the month I should be workign on it and getting things rolling again.
Keith
To the concerns of Bar vs Cage I am well aware of all the aspects and appreciate the input. I have been around for about 20 years now and have seen just about everything. I'm really only ok with the bar for the miata because of how slow the car is. Did I mention that I don't plan on running anything more than some high performance summer tires? That will help keep the speeds down.
As for Spec Miata vs CSP, I'm not looking to win a class, but to get seat time and road experiance. Rallying and driving an AWD car is a completely different beast with a different set of rules from road racing something RWD.
The Miata has been giving me cooling system issues so I just parked it for the winter. Weather is starting to warm up so by the end of the month I should be workign on it and getting things rolling again.
Keith
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Re: Hello and running a Miata with only a roll bar?
FYI Spec Miata would require a full cage.
Larry
Larry
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Re: Hello and running a Miata with only a roll bar?
I'm with you Larry, but we have a problem here. The Time Trial rules state what classes require a full cage. Spec Miata is not included. I have been arguing for some time that a GCR Club Racing class must meet all the rules including "Safety", but that is not true in Time Trials.LARRY LONG wrote:FYI Spec Miata would require a full cage.
Larry
So, unless the rules change, a roll bar (SCCA approved) is good enough in Spec Miata, Showroom Spec Miata or any other Club Racing Class that is not specifically spelled out by the Time Trial Rules as needing a cage.
Catch 22,
Dave Y
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Re: Hello and running a Miata with only a roll bar?
I disagree.
A "Spec" class not only tells you what you can't do but what you MUST do.
All Spec Miata's MUST have a roll cage even if they are running SOLO II.
It is Spec class!
My personal feeling is that anyone running Spec Miata should be required to have their cars inspected by a Road Race Miata Tech Inspector and have their log book stamped for approval.
Me included!
Larry
A "Spec" class not only tells you what you can't do but what you MUST do.
All Spec Miata's MUST have a roll cage even if they are running SOLO II.
It is Spec class!
My personal feeling is that anyone running Spec Miata should be required to have their cars inspected by a Road Race Miata Tech Inspector and have their log book stamped for approval.
Me included!
Larry
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Re: Hello and running a Miata with only a roll bar?
Again, I agree with you Larry, but that is not the TT Rules.
11.4. HILLCLIMB (LEVEL 4)
Roll cages (as specified in the GCR) are required for the following classes: GT1, Specials, Super Production, all Formula classes,
all Sports Racer classes, open GT, and open Production vehicles. In these vehicles, the roll cage structure must meet current
GCR requirements for the specific class. If the vehicle does not fall into a Club Racing class, the cage should be prepared to the
GCR equivalent or greater (for example, a tube-frame Special car should be compared to a GT class cage, while a street-driven
car that ends up in Special because of odd modifications could be comparable to a Production or IT cage).
All other classes at Hillclimb (Level 4) Time Trials events are required to have a minimum of a roll bar that meets the description
in this section of the TTR.
If you want to help me change the rules, I'm all for it. But for now, that is the way it is.
Dave Y
11.4. HILLCLIMB (LEVEL 4)
Roll cages (as specified in the GCR) are required for the following classes: GT1, Specials, Super Production, all Formula classes,
all Sports Racer classes, open GT, and open Production vehicles. In these vehicles, the roll cage structure must meet current
GCR requirements for the specific class. If the vehicle does not fall into a Club Racing class, the cage should be prepared to the
GCR equivalent or greater (for example, a tube-frame Special car should be compared to a GT class cage, while a street-driven
car that ends up in Special because of odd modifications could be comparable to a Production or IT cage).
All other classes at Hillclimb (Level 4) Time Trials events are required to have a minimum of a roll bar that meets the description
in this section of the TTR.
If you want to help me change the rules, I'm all for it. But for now, that is the way it is.
Dave Y
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Re: Hello and running a Miata with only a roll bar?
Dave
I will work to get the rules change.
Thanks for your support.
Larry
I will work to get the rules change.
Thanks for your support.
Larry
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Re: Hello and running a Miata with only a roll bar?
Ok, so I'm bringing this topic back to life, much like myself. I had some more stupid health things at the end of last year that set me back a bit and despite having my first child due september 4th I'm planning on running a few events next year. I'm getting closer to the goal and have some more questions. I'm planning on running CSP in the miata. I've got an SCCA approved rollbar (HardDog Hard Core M1 rollbar with dual diagonals and integrated harness bar) and I'm pretty sure I've got a set of 5 point belts that I can claim. I have to double check but my suit and helmet should still be ok as well as my arm restraints. My questions are as follows:
#1 9.2.1.H - Hood and Engine Compartment - Shall be securely fastened. Does this mean I need hoodpins?
#2 9.2.1.L - Seats - the seat shall be securely mounted. If a folding seat, it shall be securely bolted or strapped in place. It is highly
recommended that the driver’s seat be replaced with a one-piece bucket type race seat meeting and include an upper brace if
non-FIA homologated. - Sounds like I can use the stock seat, but where can I get more info on strapping it in place, and if I got a 1 piece seat where can I get info on the upper brace?
#3 9.2.1.T The driver shall not be exposed to header tanks or unshielded fuel and water lines. “Aeroquip” lines are considered to be
shielded lines. - This sounds like I need a shield under the dash between me and the heater core lines, but what material does it need to be and how must it be fastened? Also, is this ever checked because I have a hard time believing it is based on my previous experience.
#4 Can I get a log book and have the annual inspection performed separate from an event, or do I have to wait for my first event? I'd really hate to show up for my first event and take away someone elses spot if my car fails for something I can't easily fix.
#5 Does anyone have experience in applying directly for a Time Trials License and not the permit or is getting the permit first not really an issue? I've run Duryea and Pagoda a few times over the years with an SCCA/Rally America or NASA Rally license so I was considereing applying for the full license while listing that experience. Should I bother or just go through the novice process. It doesn't really seem restrictive or difficult in our region.
Thanks for the input!
Keith K
#1 9.2.1.H - Hood and Engine Compartment - Shall be securely fastened. Does this mean I need hoodpins?
#2 9.2.1.L - Seats - the seat shall be securely mounted. If a folding seat, it shall be securely bolted or strapped in place. It is highly
recommended that the driver’s seat be replaced with a one-piece bucket type race seat meeting and include an upper brace if
non-FIA homologated. - Sounds like I can use the stock seat, but where can I get more info on strapping it in place, and if I got a 1 piece seat where can I get info on the upper brace?
#3 9.2.1.T The driver shall not be exposed to header tanks or unshielded fuel and water lines. “Aeroquip” lines are considered to be
shielded lines. - This sounds like I need a shield under the dash between me and the heater core lines, but what material does it need to be and how must it be fastened? Also, is this ever checked because I have a hard time believing it is based on my previous experience.
#4 Can I get a log book and have the annual inspection performed separate from an event, or do I have to wait for my first event? I'd really hate to show up for my first event and take away someone elses spot if my car fails for something I can't easily fix.
#5 Does anyone have experience in applying directly for a Time Trials License and not the permit or is getting the permit first not really an issue? I've run Duryea and Pagoda a few times over the years with an SCCA/Rally America or NASA Rally license so I was considereing applying for the full license while listing that experience. Should I bother or just go through the novice process. It doesn't really seem restrictive or difficult in our region.
Thanks for the input!
Keith K