Jefferson
Moderators: Rich Rock, Mazdahead, Matt Rowe
- Mwilson
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Re: Jefferson
As usual a very nice response Matt, You said much of what I was trying to say. But then I was just a Industrial Arts Teacher!
Re: Jefferson
Absolutely I'm interested. That's why I am doing events with DC Region on Shenandoah and EMRA on Lightening at NJMP. $125 per day is a steal for the amount of seat time you get with DC Region on Shenandoah. Can it be done on Jefferson? I wouldn't even bother to try. IMO it is just not long enough to get enough cars on it. BTW, EMRA has changed their TT format to have everyone running with transponders for each of their 20 minute sessions, they still mark passing zones, no passing in the corners.Matt Green wrote:OK, you guys are lucky. I had a patented Matt Green Response (TM) all typed up, then lost it. You get the quick version.
On the Shenandoah issue- It costs over $6000 MORE to rent that circuit for the weekend versus Jefferson. Divide that among 75 drivers, add in the transponder rental cost, and suddenly a Time Trial event there costs $250 per entrant. Still interested?
Running Jefferson costs me a bit more than $8 per minute of seat time figuring 3 runs each day at 60 seconds per lap x 3 laps, 18 minutes of seat time costs me $150
8 - 20 minute sessions ( 4 per day) on Shenandoah for $250 = $1.56 per minute
There is no contest if you are comparing the cost per minute between our current Jefferson format and the format utilized by DC Region on Shenandoah and EMRA on Lightening.
I have not considered the "points" issue or participating driver preference. But if you ask me the format I prefer for a TT, passing in the straights with transponders gets my vote.
Joe Rausa
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Re: Jefferson
Everyone wants to go road racing, not me.
We visit this topic about every 2-3 years and we get pros and cons on the subject.
True, we do not get a ton of track time with the current format but, it is very KISS(KEEP IT SIMPLE STUPID) friendly. One car at a time with lots of space in front and in back, if something happens it is a one car event, if a car catches another just stay behind till that car is done or pull off a cycle thru again with the remaining laps. It is easy on all levels of driver skill and car preparation.
Allowing passing, tosses many more varibles to the mix. Yes, it might mean more track time but, then again it may not. First of all, cars will be running closer together, room for error will be less, potiental for multi-vehicle accidents. Multi-car accidents can lead to side hits, say car one spins out and car two spears car one in the driver's door. Car one runs in a class that does not require a cage or door bars said car has just a rollbar, does car one's driver survive or die? Suppose Morgs hillclimb based car is overheating and he heads to the pits, car behind does not realize this and runs over Morg because he is on a hot lap. Equal cars in groups is cool one too, how many times have we seen equal cars fighting for the same real estate and the only winner is the body shop. Lastly, the Jefferson track really does not support passing with its short and narrow straights. EMRA and NASA usually use larger and wider tracks for their TT programs like Pocono North, main Summit track, or NJMP, which all where built for racing wheel to wheel.
I will go back to fixing guiderail on the GS Parkway, where I see the results of wonderful driving and passing every day, Monday thru Friday, even my co-workers get in the act. Everyone wants to do guiderail, not me. I just want to win the lottery and go road racing!
Rich
We visit this topic about every 2-3 years and we get pros and cons on the subject.
True, we do not get a ton of track time with the current format but, it is very KISS(KEEP IT SIMPLE STUPID) friendly. One car at a time with lots of space in front and in back, if something happens it is a one car event, if a car catches another just stay behind till that car is done or pull off a cycle thru again with the remaining laps. It is easy on all levels of driver skill and car preparation.
Allowing passing, tosses many more varibles to the mix. Yes, it might mean more track time but, then again it may not. First of all, cars will be running closer together, room for error will be less, potiental for multi-vehicle accidents. Multi-car accidents can lead to side hits, say car one spins out and car two spears car one in the driver's door. Car one runs in a class that does not require a cage or door bars said car has just a rollbar, does car one's driver survive or die? Suppose Morgs hillclimb based car is overheating and he heads to the pits, car behind does not realize this and runs over Morg because he is on a hot lap. Equal cars in groups is cool one too, how many times have we seen equal cars fighting for the same real estate and the only winner is the body shop. Lastly, the Jefferson track really does not support passing with its short and narrow straights. EMRA and NASA usually use larger and wider tracks for their TT programs like Pocono North, main Summit track, or NJMP, which all where built for racing wheel to wheel.
I will go back to fixing guiderail on the GS Parkway, where I see the results of wonderful driving and passing every day, Monday thru Friday, even my co-workers get in the act. Everyone wants to do guiderail, not me. I just want to win the lottery and go road racing!
Rich
Rich Sweigart
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Re: Jefferson
I think $250 for a weekend is a fine price for a much better track.
That's not really the topic tho. I love the idea of running together but I do see the other points people made.
Be careful with the "go run with someone else if that's what you want". It will eventually bite you with attendance. I will take that advice and go run with other groups that run a better TT at better tracks IMO. Not to say that I won't ever run Jefferson again but it's not a big draw for me, that's for sure. I love the hills but I think were living in the past with this event as part of the series. Something should change.
That's not really the topic tho. I love the idea of running together but I do see the other points people made.
Be careful with the "go run with someone else if that's what you want". It will eventually bite you with attendance. I will take that advice and go run with other groups that run a better TT at better tracks IMO. Not to say that I won't ever run Jefferson again but it's not a big draw for me, that's for sure. I love the hills but I think were living in the past with this event as part of the series. Something should change.
#88 SM
Mitsubishi evo 8
Mitsubishi evo 8
Re: Jefferson
Hey Rich,
You start out saying you don't want to go road racing. Then you talk about the bad things that can happen on the track. And you finish by saying you want to go road racing.
Rich Rock
You start out saying you don't want to go road racing. Then you talk about the bad things that can happen on the track. And you finish by saying you want to go road racing.
Rich Rock
- mrevilracing
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Re: Jefferson
I'm still calculating the extra cost. The $250 to run the big track is nothing. A 2 day PDX will cost over $400 so I'm in for the $250. Only bummer is I have that x2 but I'd still do it.
The additional drawback is tires. Now I need another set of wheels. Not too big of an issue at $140/each. But tires is something I'd dread at $300/each. I'm already in for $1200+ a season just for tires. And that's IF they last that long and I don't flatten one with something silly....like a tree or something, hehe.
My idea for limited passing initially was straights only and only if you caught up to the driver in front. If you've caught that driver, you WILL be passing in the straight because he's very slow. And yes, I am discounting the starter letting that driver out late....I will assume this didn't happen.
In the current format, you catch a driver, you get off the track and get another run. But now you're sitting and the motor is running and heating up. I think if you pass, then that lap won't count for the pass because you got held up. Once you go around, your time starts when you hit the start/finish lap again. At this point, you have WIDE open track to go. Of course, the lap for the other driver continues to click away because he/she was unobstructed.
I guess the question I want to ask is: how often does it happen that a driver gets 'caught'? I haven't paid enough attention to keep track of that.
I think all the points brought forth by everyone are valid and have given me a lot of things to consider. But if changing the format would jeapardize part of the series, I think I'd be against that. I don't know enough about the other organizations to compare and to improve.
The additional drawback is tires. Now I need another set of wheels. Not too big of an issue at $140/each. But tires is something I'd dread at $300/each. I'm already in for $1200+ a season just for tires. And that's IF they last that long and I don't flatten one with something silly....like a tree or something, hehe.
My idea for limited passing initially was straights only and only if you caught up to the driver in front. If you've caught that driver, you WILL be passing in the straight because he's very slow. And yes, I am discounting the starter letting that driver out late....I will assume this didn't happen.
In the current format, you catch a driver, you get off the track and get another run. But now you're sitting and the motor is running and heating up. I think if you pass, then that lap won't count for the pass because you got held up. Once you go around, your time starts when you hit the start/finish lap again. At this point, you have WIDE open track to go. Of course, the lap for the other driver continues to click away because he/she was unobstructed.
I guess the question I want to ask is: how often does it happen that a driver gets 'caught'? I haven't paid enough attention to keep track of that.
I think all the points brought forth by everyone are valid and have given me a lot of things to consider. But if changing the format would jeapardize part of the series, I think I'd be against that. I don't know enough about the other organizations to compare and to improve.
RIP Joe, my friend.
Must go faster!!!!
Must go faster!!!!
- Mwilson
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Re: Jefferson
Because of the excellent job that are starters do this happens very very little. Matt Rowe, Matt Green, Gordon Wise, Dan Lippirini and some others do one Hell of a job getting the cars out on the track with little or no "catch up's." And believe me this is not an easy task. Hope this answers your question!I guess the question I want to ask is: how often does it happen that a driver gets 'caught'? I haven't paid enough attention to keep track of that.
- Steve Tumolo
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Re: Jefferson
I have run at Jefferson with the PHA format for many years and I also Roadrace. I think it is a opening a can of worms by allowing passing. As some of you may know passing even in a strait in "racing" mode is not as easy as passing someone out on the highway or in a passing zone on a normal road. The person being passed would have to really slowdown to let you by and it would have to be something planned out by both drivers to be done smoothly on such short narrow straits. This would require drivers to be checking mirrors and doing other "situational awareness" duties that normally would not be needed. Some drivers just don't like having racing traffic around them and I think that's fine. That's why the current format works.
Now on the big track at Summit it could totally work the strait is long and wide enough to let power be king and have no problem getting by slower traffic without effecting either car.
Now on the big track at Summit it could totally work the strait is long and wide enough to let power be king and have no problem getting by slower traffic without effecting either car.
#30 A-Sedan Mustang
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Re: Jefferson
Rich,
If I hit lottery, I might go wheel to wheel. Nah, after 39 years of hillclimbing, it is all that I know. Maybe I would build a 4 wheel drive , mid engine Special car with about 800hp and Bowland sized wings. I know that such cars existed in the early 70's but, were banned from the track that they ran. If I could only find one.
Thanks Steve for your points, you forgot to mention that on the pit straight at Jefferson that the proper line is going from right to left no matter which direction you are going to set up for the next turn, not to mention the kink on the back straight. The track was never designed for passing. Another venue, might be a whole different story, we have a good safety record, lets keep it that way.
Rich
ps Steve, I do not know what highways that you ride on but, they definitly not the same ones that I ride on everyday nor are they done with a loaded tractor trailer . Try going up and down either the NJ TPK or the GS Parkway in a rig, not fun. Sometimes, it takes a few miles to pass one car or truck and now that NJMP opened up, everyone on 55 is Mario Andretti !
If I hit lottery, I might go wheel to wheel. Nah, after 39 years of hillclimbing, it is all that I know. Maybe I would build a 4 wheel drive , mid engine Special car with about 800hp and Bowland sized wings. I know that such cars existed in the early 70's but, were banned from the track that they ran. If I could only find one.
Thanks Steve for your points, you forgot to mention that on the pit straight at Jefferson that the proper line is going from right to left no matter which direction you are going to set up for the next turn, not to mention the kink on the back straight. The track was never designed for passing. Another venue, might be a whole different story, we have a good safety record, lets keep it that way.
Rich
ps Steve, I do not know what highways that you ride on but, they definitly not the same ones that I ride on everyday nor are they done with a loaded tractor trailer . Try going up and down either the NJ TPK or the GS Parkway in a rig, not fun. Sometimes, it takes a few miles to pass one car or truck and now that NJMP opened up, everyone on 55 is Mario Andretti !
Rich Sweigart
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Re: Jefferson
As the OP, I'll redirect the conversation and ask: What were the results of Jefferson? Any records broken? New drivers? How many entries?
RIP Joe, my friend.
Must go faster!!!!
Must go faster!!!!
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Re: Jefferson
Nelson posted the results in an email. I will be doing the points keeping again this year and will send the results as soon as I (err Kate) get it done to be post to the web site.
There is a little confusion on the results. It looks like we were all looking at the list of records from 2008 not 2009. The record that I was given credit for was incorrect since there was a faster time set in 2009 in my class. Also, according to my memory (full of holes) I think I see different first place finishers than what was announced. Any explaination for that???
Can someone contact me on this before we do the spread sheet?
Dave Y
There is a little confusion on the results. It looks like we were all looking at the list of records from 2008 not 2009. The record that I was given credit for was incorrect since there was a faster time set in 2009 in my class. Also, according to my memory (full of holes) I think I see different first place finishers than what was announced. Any explaination for that???
Can someone contact me on this before we do the spread sheet?
Dave Y
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Re: Jefferson
I'd love to see results myself. I guess if we didn't race we didn't get a email?
#88 SM
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Re: Jefferson
I raced and didn't get results. I'm guessing they will be posted at some point.
It was my first event at Jefferson. I enjoyed it very much, and look forward to running it the opposite way (everyone seems to like that more). I chorded my Hoosiers on the second run (I thought they would last one more event, I was wrong), and used my street tires for the rest. Still had a ball and got to focus on my line (thanks for the course walk Matt), and wasn't worried about the times, just looking for improvements.
Can't wait for the next event. See everyone at Weatherly!
It was my first event at Jefferson. I enjoyed it very much, and look forward to running it the opposite way (everyone seems to like that more). I chorded my Hoosiers on the second run (I thought they would last one more event, I was wrong), and used my street tires for the rest. Still had a ball and got to focus on my line (thanks for the course walk Matt), and wasn't worried about the times, just looking for improvements.
Can't wait for the next event. See everyone at Weatherly!
Ryan Hetrick
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Re: Jefferson
Just so everyone knows the procedure. After the results are verified, I get a copy by email. All the entries are placed on a spread sheet that Kate and I put together. The first one for the year takes a little time because we start from scratch on a clean spread sheet and have to add all the new classes and new people. We should be done by this weekend. It's a lot of input so I want to make sure I have the results right. There are a few issues that I'm questioning. When we are done we send that to Matt Rowe who will put it on the web site under the Schedule/Results tab.
Is there any team competition this year? If so, am I doing the points or is someone else???
Dave Y
Is there any team competition this year? If so, am I doing the points or is someone else???
Dave Y
Re: Jefferson
The results are on myautoevents.com.
- mrevilracing
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Re: Jefferson
Can someone post a link to the results on myautoevents.com please. I can't seem to find any reference to Summit Point anywhere.
RIP Joe, my friend.
Must go faster!!!!
Must go faster!!!!
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Re: Jefferson
Thanks for the link! The results should also be posted here on this site, on the "Results page", where most would look.
BTW, it was noted to me the hillclimb posters should have the PHA website for more info, besides the dates.
Made sense to me...
BTW, it was noted to me the hillclimb posters should have the PHA website for more info, besides the dates.
Made sense to me...
- mrevilracing
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Re: Jefferson
Dave,
Didn't you know that pointskeeper is right up there with President, Vice Pres., Sec., Treas.; it is a life time position. LOL! To save time, I used to copy of the previous years' points and zeroed everyone out, fiddled with the classes and moved names around. I would drop names that were not running after Giants. The 3 hardest events are Spring Jefferson, Giants, and Duryea; mostly adding names.
Rich
Didn't you know that pointskeeper is right up there with President, Vice Pres., Sec., Treas.; it is a life time position. LOL! To save time, I used to copy of the previous years' points and zeroed everyone out, fiddled with the classes and moved names around. I would drop names that were not running after Giants. The 3 hardest events are Spring Jefferson, Giants, and Duryea; mostly adding names.
Rich
Rich Sweigart