noise control

[Mwilson]

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[Mary Anne Fieux]

Morg baby, I have never known you to be LOUD, OBNOXIOUS, nor EGOTISTICAL ....... BTW....watch out for that "bend over backwards" part, it might catch you in the end!

Lastly, there is a positive side to loud race cars, at least at Duryea and Pagoda the sound of cars nullifies the sound of gun shots.

[crusaderchuck]

after some serious thought i've decided to withdraw the saab from all PHA events as well as sell the other two we have (one complete turn key and mary anne's race car project). i've had enough of all this and what was once plesant is now extremly unplesant. where once it was a "we need the entries" situation , it's become we have enough entries. continuing to drive a car that is as old as the saab in a completly noncompetitive class for the joy of competing against the clock or mary anne , now is just a waste of time and money. it was fun , but i'm tired of all the complaints about pit space , generator noise , car noise and trying to maintain a car to my best ability and keep the oldest saab in regular competition in north america still in competition. obviously vintage and historic classes are dog and pony show material for the real competiton classes. i'm being very carefull with my wordage as what i'd really like to say is extremly unplesant and very pointed full of colorfull expletives.
being dyslexic , i have an interesting vantage point on most evrything. this included. but to all this i respectfully request all future refrences to the saab be left out as it has become no longer importaint to single out that specific car. since i chose to prepare the car to the factory state of tune and replicate my father's 1964 season car down to it's "IT-1" class markings (as it was numbered and class marked for marlboro that year) i refuse to change the car. since the car is so offensive and has caused so much controversy i'm left no choice but to withdraw it from future competition.
i rarely check the forum. mary anne has been urging my reading. well , ok , i've read. and , that is my contribution to resolve the situation.

chuck
1960 saab model 93F #251

[dspgti]

I don't remember anyone pointing out a SAAB. There are more two cycles than just Saabs. Vintage and Historic have the largest classes and some of the fastest times and a Historic car has won the Lloyd Geib Award which applied to all race cars.

Sorry we ruined all your fun Chuck.

Dave Y

[mrevilracing]

Wait a minute, Chuck ole buddy!!! Don't you have the oldest, longest race history SAAB in the country??? Uh, if that's a fact, that car SCREAMS PHA. Maybe, you might have to plug up a bit...after all the wonderful sound control instrumentation comes out and draws a bead on the exhaust side. But either way, that car can't leave. It's just not allowed.

Bob brought up the Mazdas. Last year was an issue because they sat in the pits(1 of the Reading races) and attempted to fix the car but rev'd for 10-15 minutes straight. Which also caused a huge cloud of smoke to engulf between turn 2 and 3. But at Weatherly, they were really good. Started, moved to the start line and went. Hell, they even shut down in the staging line after they moved!!! Yeah guys, I noticed.

So here's the deal. Everyone go out to Radio Shack and buy one of those nifty little sound meters. It'll be close enough for what we're doing. Go meter your car and if you wind up over the 103db limit, adjust to get it down under that threshold. If you can't go out and get a meter for 1 reason or another, there are pleanty of folks that have them you can borrow. I even have 1 and I'll be metering hopefully on Sunday. If someone needs to borrow mine, just let me know. This solution will put everyone in compliance, or close to it. There are 8 months to prepare. You wanted a solution Morg, there it is. The follow up to it will be that sound metering won't be done at Fall Weatherly next year. It'll be done starting at Spring Weatherly and the guidelines will be completed and included in the TTR, as they apply to hillclimbing, by Jefferson, right?

An additional solution is that the PHA and the hosting REGION purchase ear plugs for each event. These can be handed out where spectators enter and be available at spectator locations. And, signs should be placed warning that this event COULD be loud at times and it is recommended that ear protection be worn. I think this will put a proactive light on PHA events regarding the noise level. Here: http://www.samsclub.com/shopping/naviga ... sku=254141 I've even gone online to find where to buy them. $15.95/200 pair of 33db noise reduction. Buy 1000 before each event. It's only $80/event. There is solution #2. Cheap and proactive.

Any other issues need solving???

[Matt Rowe]

First, don't assume that 103 dB will be the number in use. 103dB is the standard for club racing based on a 50 ft distance and designed around preventing complaints from a tracks neighbors. The issue has been brought up is much closer and in your face, so to speak. There are guidelines for what noise levels are tolerable based on level and duration.

Second, providing earplugs isn't an optimal solution. Many people will not want to wear them, it's not necessarily conducive to a fun event with family or friends when you can no longer talk to each other. It may also only raise more issues as it will highlight that the event is noisy. And that still doesn't address the officials that need to be able to hear each other and what is going on around them. Even assuming radios/headphones are a solution that is still a few thousand dollars of expense.

Looks like we still have some work to do.

[Mwilson]

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[Mel Horn]

Having been around since 1972, I've been there, done that with noise control. I remember sitting in a BMW(1974) at Giants' start line behind Jake Krone 's Mazda RX-2. You could see a literal wave of people falling back from the fence holding their ears as Jake went up the hill. Oscar Kovaleski asserted that weekend that noise control was in the future for PHA. AS he put it, "You wanna race with mufflers or not at all?"

In the next couple years we were forced at Duryea to use the course as a return road since the folks along Hill St apparently complained about the noise, even aftr we cut our engines after a certain point.

I first noticed the irony of enforced noise control when we ran New Hampshire as a Solo 1. My daughter asked me if they had a Noise Control Monitor for the NASCAR races. I said, "Gee, I don't think they do..."

I am typing this as the York Fairgrounds is holding motorcycle flat track races one-half mile (+/-) from my house. We are also in the middle of Bike Week and 2,000 motorcycles paraded down Market Street last night. In both instances I am aware of the sound but is it far from bothering me.

There has been a 1/2 mile dirt track in Port Royal PA since the mid-to-late 1930s. They race on Saturday night. Every once in a while some one moves into town and then complains about the noise. Trust me, sprint cars make a hell of a lot more noise than Chuck's SAAB or any Mazda.

Who are we getting civilian complaints from? I'm sure that Morgan's wise, sage, grandfatherly advice of a "little common sense" is the answer rather than panic.

[PitCrewLinda]

As a spectator, photographer and enthusiast of hillclimb racing myself...I suggest you ask Jane Stinsmen about what it's like to wear earplugs. She wears them all day long; I know because we pitted beside her and John at Weatherly and I noticed that. When I walked by their pit, I noticed them every time. I'm sure she hears well enough and can have a conversation with John and those around her to say that earplugs do not hinder much at all.

If earplugs reduce the loudest part of those decibles you all are talking about, it would be a nice gesture for PHA to offer them to the public for a minimal charge. It is up to the public whether they use them or not; it would just show the public we do care enough to make them an offer.

Linda and the Westie girls....

[Matt Rowe]

Mel, I wouldn't say that there is any panic. Over the past couple seasons I have had complaints from our own drivers/workers. I didn't count all of them but I can easily come up with more than 20 names. Additionally we have observed a "significant" number of spectators that are visibly distressed by the sound level of some cars. The point is to not wait until there are complaints and we have to institute damage control.

Our previous policy was one of self policing with the occasional friendly suggestion when a driver appeared not to realize the issue. It appears that is not working and some policy and test procedures must be put in place. Again, not panic but it has been pointed out by several people that we have a growing noise issue and apparently if there are no rules then people will push the boundaries of what is reasonable.

I've provided my perspective. Expect a proposal to be discussed at the November PHA meeting.

[mrevilracing]

A few may be surprised to hear I'm actually proactive. Imagine that, huh? Anyway, I have 2 sound meters. Just got back from a little run down the road and metered to the best of my ability. Tough to watch a meter and run WOT at the same time. From what I saw, metering in "A", it read 101db inside the car. Which, in my opinion, translates to well above 103db outside the car. So, I'll be be shopping for a quieter exhaust. As I said, there are 8 months and by Weatherly, the car should be well under the 103db level as stated in the GCR.

And no, I'm not panicing.

[Mwilson]

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[FV95]

It is too early to jump to conclusions. I suspect there will be a specification decided upon in the near future (PHA meetings, NOV, FEB & APR?)). That will be "X" decibels at "Y" feet. For example: At Summit I believe it is 93 decibels at 50 ft. Sound control is located about 150 ft after the start finish line, about 40 feet from from the edge of the track. I could be wrong, but it is only an example. Measuring in the car or right next to it will only be an approximation.

Matt, do you need anything from any of us in order to draft a proposed noise standard?
John

[timurf]

Speaking of noise control WILL YOU PEOPLE KEEP IT DOWN AND STOP YELLING AT EACH OTHER!? I'M TRYING TO SLEEP HERE FOR CRYIN' OUT LOUD!

Sorry - just trying to lighten the moment...

[mrevilracing]

I wasn't yelling at anyone......

BUT IF YOU WANT ME TO.......

[Mary Anne Fieux]

Hope the following photos from our southern friend's Blue Ridge Hillclimb helps this discussion. I hope all our eggs are not in one basket of dB readings only. Note the common denominator in the photos:

Also, Dave Y., please note there is specific reference about SAAB. Just calling that to your attention, that's all.

[dspgti]

I stand corrected. I missed the list in parenthasis. My understanding of the jist of Bob's comments was pointed at several types of cars and using "Rotaries, Saabs and others" as general reference for two strokes (actually the rotary is a Wankel cycle. not a two or a four stroke Otto cycle). Perhaps the attempt was to point out that the frequency level was different and should be considered.

In any case, ear protection should be mandatory for start line personnel and anyone else close to the start line and other areas of concentrated noise. But that doesn't change the reason and purpose of "Sound Control". There are standards that are required to be met and every Region and sanctioned event has a responsability to enforce those requirements or potentially lose the sanction.

Give up making objectionable noises or give up the events? No contest in my book.

Dave Y.

[Rich Rock]

[quote= Note the common denominator in the photos:

[/quote]


1. No houses or spectators

2. Each car has a roll cage

3. Each car is powered by a 4-cycle engine

4 All the people are white males

All of which proves pretty much nothing. Similarly, the fact that they are all wearing headsets does not prove that they don't have any problems hearing important communications, or that there aren't any other noise-related issues.

Rich Rock

[dspgti]

Those aren't ear protectors, they are ipod head sets. They are listening to Led Zeppelin and Pink Floyd.

[Mwilson]

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