Hill / Class Records

[Mark Aubele]

Dan L,

I think your car is pretty close to Steve and Adam's in power to weight considering your 4-valve swap. The engine in the Mach 1 isn't much different than the 4-valve from the Lincoln Mark VIII on up to the 01 Cobra. Now the 2 valve that came in the car, that's another story!

[Rich Sweigart]

For many years, the PHA dumped ESP classed cars in BSP. Apparently, one driver still thinks that is in effect.

Rich

[dspgti]

Dave, If "any reclassification of cars...needs to be addressed to the SOLO Brd. at Hdqtrs", how were forced-induction cars moved to SM in the PHA series?

Joe, you got me there I guess I opened Pandora's Box on this issue and came out looking like a hypacrite. Well let me see how I can back pedal on this one?

I got it, Let's reclassify all Street Prepared cars to Street Mod (I'm in North Carolina right now and I could hear the screams all the way down here). I'm joking, of course.

SP is out of wack and uninforceable in many cases. The rating system in SOLO I was not designed to apply to our form of racing. The imballance of power potential with turbo charged cars (meaning playing with boost) that exisited in BSP, CSP and DSP, led to the creation of the class overide that PHA applied to it's supplimental rules. It was discussed about bumping them to BSP as in the past, but that was a time when BSP was believed to be the fastest class. Now its ESP (remember there are Fararri's and Cobra R's in this class?). Maybe we should have just bumped Forced Induction to ESP. Let's see that puts Jeremy (and Aaron doing a 2:0X on his second run) in with all the Stang guys (you're screaming again).

Maybe we messed up by making the rule change, but I don't think the PHA board or members at large want to mess with the classes any more. Really, I'd be petitioning SOLO Board on the ESP ranking if I were you. I can't see how it's fair in SOLO I anyway.

Did I recover? Probably not.
Dave Y.

[dlascoskie]

Dan L,

I think your car is pretty close to Steve and Adam's in power to weight considering your 4-valve swap. The engine in the Mach 1 isn't much different than the 4-valve from the Lincoln Mark VIII on up to the 01 Cobra. Now the 2 valve that came in the car, that's another story!

I agree with you, and that's why I did the swap last winter. (let's not talk about all the problems I had with that motor this year ) You make a great point when you refer to the original 2-valve motor, which comes in the GTs, which are also classed in ESP,as is the earlier Mustangs with 5.0's and the race prepped Cobra R!!(http://www.rsportscars.com/ford/2000-fo ... g-cobra-r/)
See my point yet? It's like this in many SP classes, where you can't do internal engine mods, but are expected to compete on hills with big HP cars in the same class. When a record is utterly destroyed by one of these high HP cars, you can forget about getting anywhere near it, or that car in any event, until you essentially create a replica of it. What I'm saying is why not have relatively equal classes so that you can compete with your car in it's original form more or less?

[dspgti]

I have to make another retraction. It's been a while since I studied the SP classes, especially A,B and E, there are all kinds of high performace cars in B and ASP.

I'll let the rest of you slug it out, who belongs where and then take it up with headquarters.

Fact of the matter is, the reason for the thread in the first place was, Records are not the best mearurement of achievement. They are very satisfying on a personal level but not as challenging for everyone. Agree or disagree?

Dave Y.

[Mark Aubele]

Dan I know how you feel about the underpowered for the class issue. I ran all year in a stock 3300 lb. BMW against a few corvettes that probably had 100-150 more horsepower than I did, and likely less weight. Thats just how it goes. I hate going to a hillclimb and seeing them give away 59 trophies when there are only 63 people racing. The LAST thing we need is MORE classes. I think we should vote on combining BSP and ESP, and grouping SM and SM2 together, for a nice start. Let's face it, the cars in BSP and ESP at the hills are very well matched, just look at the times! If you want to talk about unfair, look at AWD turbo in SM. On a hill you can't compete without having 200 more hp. But that very reason is why we show up, we are trying to do what we shouldn't be able to. I don't know about anyone else, but I don't want to win if I don't earn it. I was satisfied with my driving the most this year at an event that I LOST (duryea). In the end we compete against ourselves. These are not spec classes. We are all here to have fun.

[dlascoskie]

Mark, you were amazing at Duryea. Dave sorry to derail the thread. Thought it was an interesting topic, though. I'll shut up now.

[NJ 03Mach1]

.......But that very reason is why we show up, we are trying to do what we shouldn't be able to......... I don't know about anyone else, but I don't want to win if I don't earn it....We are all here to have fun.

My thoughts exactly Mark. I didn't get one win this year, and still had a blast. I don't even care if I get one next year. The one chance I had at a "win" was when it was questionable if Steve would be ready in time I told him over and over, that's not how I want a win, I want to earn it. I'm HOPING for next year I'll be closer to him time wise and it will be a little fun competition between us, back and forth dunno who's going to win etc.

Our cars are almost identical. So, for us it will pretty much come down to driver..which will make it even more fun IMO

[mrevilracing]

Well, Dave. Since I'm the arrogant one here, I'll chime in to that last comment. I feel records ARE the best measurement of achievement on a couple of different levels. I'll use me as an example cause that is what I know best. I come to the PHA in '07 because I want to race on the street in a similar fashion to the SSCC - legally. Can't win a championship because all I have are street tires. I come back in '08 with race tires and absolutely destroy some records. Broke records that stood for 15yrs and could stand to break them even farther with better driving, a little more hp and some weight reduction. I'm not in a full preped race car. I don't have a list of sponsors shelling out $1000's. And, god forbid, I get to know my car like most of the current or past drivers know their cars. Then what? Put Steve in his own class because ESP is where the discussion came from. I can be in group 3 and run against the clock. I'm good with that. Nelson, I won't even complain if the timing goes down during a run. We'll pick it up on the next one.

[Steve Tumolo]

I know I laid all this out before on here but here it goes again. When I started racing in hills back in '94 or so the ESP class was already combined with BSP. Every year in the supps it was renewed to show that ESP would be classed as BSP. For some reason about 5 years ago the supps did not reflect this long standing rule. This opened the door for someone to once again enter a car in ESP. I was standing next to the driver when he asked an official at Weatherly why he can't enter his Mustang in ESP, (because he was right at the record and knew he could get it). And even though I stated the case about the rule that has been left out of the supps he was allowed to run in ESP. That is why you saw records that were over 15 years old Steve. Hell if I could have run in ESP the whole time I would have been!!! The fast guys running BSP all had cars that were completely gutted except for the dash with very questionable engine mods. Pretty much American Sedan cars with more horsepower. Steve I don't know how your fast times compare to the BSP records but if you want a real good guage that is the place to look. Because those guys were REALLY fast and if the ball had not been dropped that is where the ESP cars might still be today.

I just looked up the records for ESP. The Camaro Joe T. was driving was a white mid '70s Camaro. I would say the class has changed

[Mark Aubele]

Yeah, it's pretty unfair to know the records we are trying to beat in BSP were all set by illegal cars! I was only able to beat the one at Jefferson, and that was the last one I thought I would beat. Dan, thanks for the compliment, but I think your brother was the amazing one! I still can't understand how he got a 38ish year old car up that hill so fast, regardless of how much power he's making. And Steve T., how did those guys get away with running blatantly illegal cars in SP? I have spoken with people who have let me know the mods these guys had, and there is no way they should've been in SP.

[mrevilracing]

The fast guys running BSP all had cars that were completely gutted except for the dash with very questionable engine mods. Pretty much American Sedan cars with more horsepower.quote]

And Steve T., how did those guys get away with running blatantly illegal cars in SP? I have spoken with people who have let me know the mods these guys had, and there is no way they should've been in SP.

As for Hill/Class records... There seems to be an unwritten rule in hillclimbing: you don't protest me and I won't protest you. Over time,there have been a number of "suspect" cars that have held class/hill records (and do); everybody talks about them but nobody protests them. There is a proceedure in place for protests. It's sort of like the weather: everybody complains about it, but nobody does anything about it.

Do we really want to discuss this? Because if it were up to me, there would be an inspection process prior to running the year. If you got inspected at the begining of the year and did no apparent changes. Yet picked up 4seconds at a specific track from a previous run, there would be an additional inspection. Regardless of whether you set a record or not.

[dspgti]

Maybe we can and should discuss class legality here.We did bring this subject up a little while ago but maybe needs repeating.

Joe may leave everyone with the impression that protests don't happen. While it is true a formal written protest was not lodged in some time , several instances have shown that a resolution was reached without the formal process. The 2007 Duryea came close but the individuals intending to submit a formal protest failed to enter it in a timely manor. I believe that today, we are far more carefull not to let blaitent violations be ignored.

If anyone feels that someone in their class is cheating, they have a resposibility to get things corrected. The protest process can be involved and expensive but it doesn't have to reach the ultimate point. It should be started by opening conversations the suspected offending individual. If not directly, through an official like a tech inspector. Nothing will chase competitors away quicker than allowing open cheating to continue.

By the way, the idea from Mark about BSP and ESP combined and SM and SM2 combined is brilliant. I think we should add ASP to the BSP, ESP mix, don't you?

Dave Y.

[mrevilracing]

Why stop at ASP, BSP and ESP. Just put all the Street Prepareds in 1 class and call it even. We can have everyone from ASP to FSP vote on it. Ballots could be mailed to all competitors in the last 5 years that competed in those classes. That way it doesn't get passed without a lot of input. After all, you wouldn't want to alienate anyone, would you?

I'd like to read where the issue of class legality was brought up. Could you link the thread please? I am interested to see what was discussed.

[Mark Aubele]

Thanks Dave, forgot about that one. Now that's a brilliant idea! Any chance we could vote on it? The only problem I could forsee with that is there are some truly disqusting cars in ASP that would be extremely fast if they would show up. (911 GT3, C5 and C6 Z06 for instance)

[dspgti]

I'm being a little facetiuos (I had to look it up to spell it right) when I say combine all those classes together (I said a little).

Dennis Fink had most of the ASP records (126.6 at Duryea)till he totaled his Z06 at Weatherly a few years back. The Porsche that holds the ASP record at Duryea is a 996 which I thought was a GT3. At a 126.592, that is slower than you or Steve or Mike L.

Now, that is the comparison that I am making on what "I" call a "Drivers Hill". Look at Giants, what I call a "horse power hill" and you get a slightly different picture. Steve Sincavage in a Z06 holds ASP at 48.904, no one got close or couldn't even beat a girl in BSP. (Oh boy, am I gonna pay for that sexist remark. I feel I have the right say that and prove I'm joking by my admission that I lost to a woman driver at the final SCCA Regional Club race a couple of weeks ago. Adrienne is a very good driver and proves it by being just .2 off the 1998 class record. Go Adrienne.)

We could go on and on, look at every event etc. But lets get back to the point. What do records tell us? Are some easier to get than others? Do we need to mess around with SCCA classes? Should we be looking at combining classes?

Dave Y.

[Mark Aubele]

I will go on record, and I will put $500 on it, that I (and anyone else on this board) would go under 2 minutes in a stock 996 GT3 or C5 or C6 Z06 on A6's. Those cars are capable of going MUCH faster than 126's. Those two cars trap at anywhere from 116-126 mph in the quarter off the showroom floor. Much faster than my car (96ish), Steve's (107?) or Dan R's car (112). And I think that they surely outhandle our lowely sedans. And Adrienne smoked my sorry ass at Giants'. My mustang was SIX SECONDS faster than the BMW! Yeah, I'd agree it's a horsepower hill.

[dspgti]

I'll back your bet and double it if you change the words "anyone else" to "many". One caveat though, "you break it you bought it". I'm stayin on the proch with the small dogs.

There are lots of good drivers in good cars.
There are some good drivers in great cars
There are some great drivers in good cars.
There are only a few great drivers in great cars.

Be your own judge on that.
Dave Y.

[Steve Tumolo]

I would love to give it a try Mark but my one rule is "Thou Shall Not Drive Anything In a Race That Thou Cannot Afford To Fix or Replace." Merlin tried to get me in the Tiger a few times. One of these days I might have to break my rule for a chance at that though .

[dspgti]

Go for it Steve! It's only fiberglass and round tubing.

Dave Y.