Hill / Class Records

[jerdeitzel]

Well since i am finally able to post on a real computer i'll say my part.

First off. If i'm getting what you are saying. You would like to eliminate all solo classes? Well thats an easy fix for the roll bar- roll cage issue isn't it?

The problem with any other way is there will always be an upper level to a class and a lower. Dosn't matter how you do it. If you can come up with something that works you need to send that to the head offices.

Now onto the record, I'll really piss off some people. Maybe some of the previous, existing records are not very good. Its not like you can really just take the car into account sorry. I'll use your son (I'm assuming i'm talking about the right person). He ran a 120.xxx in a SM car. Well for some reason the owner of the car had the record at a 124.xxx. Well to me all that tells me is that your son is a better driver. Has nothing to do with the car. SO if you really want an equal playing field for each class you need everyone to drive the same car. Sounds kinda stupid.

Another example of maybe soft records. I believe Steve beat one record this year bye 8 sec. That old one might have been "not so fast". I believe that alot of the record are now becoming "good". You just need to hunt down the good ones and go after them if you want a challange

[jerdeitzel]

Okay now also using the power to weight ratio for classing. You just can't take that into account you will need to seperate RWD, FWD, AWD. ANd i'll put my money on AWD in every case on the hills in that fight. You guys are trying to equalize something that is not equal. AWD is made for the hills. If we were on a track i'd be no where near the times of a CSR or other race cars. Well hopefully not far off but. So now we can just turn this into a battle over turbo AWD cars right? And i do agree. If a fully preped ESP WRX came to the hills, i'd say the car couldn't be touched bye anything else in that class. And this gets back to having a fully prepped car. How many of our competitors have that?

[Joe Foering]

I thought that all forced-induction cars had to run in SM or SM2 as a result of a motion made and passed at a PHA meeting; so that means a full prep ESP WRX would have to run in a SM class. Am I correct?

[mrevilracing]

Jeremy, I was holding back on saying that. Maybe those records weren't that great. And I went after them with a furvor this year. I looked at every record and where I was last year(if I ran it) and who ran it and held it. A little friendly, cross-class competition pushed me even harder.

Something that may be out of the discussion is tires. They were such an important upgrade that we were astounded at the results. I ran the Hankook Ventus V214's. 275/40/17's in the C70 compound. Talk about WOW. I don't know if these are the best or not but when you can pick up from 1.5 to 4.5 seconds, depending upon the track....with NO other mods or weight reduction. That's saying something about tires. As a matter of fact, I couldn't get the rear seat delete kit built so had to put the entire rear seat back in and GAINED weight at Giant's.

Back on track here. What is the solution being proposed. Enough with this car with that hp or that car with that weight. Bring up a specific solution. Are we talking about having a scale and a mobile dyno at the track to put a car into a specific class or give it a time handicap? Who's gonna pay for the pull? I bet....1 person, ME. Am I the only 1 on this board with an actual dyno sheet? You guys postin here....do you have a dyno sheet? If not, get one and post it up so we can compare. Also, here's the tech sheet on the Mach: http://www.mach1registry.com/Specs/Specs.htm You can go there to compare what I'm running. Don't forget to post up what engine and trans you're running as well as cam specs. We'll need all that info to do a proper comparison to come up with a handicap of some sort. And what will happen if the handicap DOESN'T work? What is the contingency?

[jerdeitzel]

Joe, you are correct. Thats why i stated "i agree" before the statement. I'm fine with the no forced induction rule. You guys got that one right because its such a huge advantage at the hills. As is AWD. So we could just make a AWD rally car class. This is sorta the thing SCCA is trying to do anyways. They just had no idea the potential of these street rally cars, So now people are having a fit. Heck they even talked about moving the EVO to ASP because the Suby's can't keep up in BSP. I don't have a solution, But, understand that the SCCA seems to always be moving things around to try and even the playing field. We could try the same thing.

Steve, you hit the nail on the head with tires also.It makes a huge difference. I went faster at all the hills i ran this year except Weatherly. Why? Tires! Last year i was running a 255-40-17 Nitto NT01. This year i ran a Hoosier 285-30-18 A6. Which is a much faster tire. The width helped alittle also. IMO this is the reason i was able to beat Bill in the Audi at Duryea. He is running a 245 Hoosier R6. Not the right tire IMO or big enough for that matter. So tires make a huge difference.

Oh Steve i do have dyno sheets. I have no idea how to post them tho. I'd be happy to give out the mod list on the car. Its fairly long! lol

[dspgti]

Any reclassification of cars or splitting of classes needs to be directed to SOLO Board at headquarters. Good luck with that. The general attitude in PHA is, how can we combine more classes?

Speaking on behalf of the majority of TT members, I don't think there is any desire to rule out any SOLO classes currently accepted. 80% of us came from SOLO II and it continues to be a bridge for up and coming drivers. If it sounds like I'm picking on autocross cars, I repeat, I'm joking. I have one SOLO Prepared car that I still run, one under construction for TT and stop by my garage some time and see the Ultimate is SOLO cars hanging from the ceiling. Someday we my take a run at George.

Jeremy, I'm impressed. You are doing your homework or did someone tip you off on the connection to Aaron in a Specials class. Please don't ever think that my position on issues like Rollcages, Street Mod and forced induction has anything to do with you personnaly. It has everything to do with, That car, My son, His co-driver and the Final outcome. If you ever want the whole story, pull me aside and be prepared for a long conversation.

Dave Y

[Steve Tumolo]

For me personally I am proud of the ITC record I set at Pagoda in Dave Miller's Rabbit. I know that ITC class cars have not changed much over the last 10 years, so with setting it a while ago and to say it has not been beaten yet tells me it is a good mark. I was also proud of the AS record I got at Pagoda as well. To go back and get that one 2 years after balling up the other Mustang was a great way to tell the Hill to " 'eff off!!!". My point is that the records I set were in cars compairable to the ones that had the records already. A Fox body Mustang ('79-'93) has almost every American Sedan hill record. Since that is what I have, I know that getting an American Sedan record is an accomplishment. In the SP classes it really seems to come down to the newest car is going to be the best car. There is no provisions in the rules that really level the playing field for something like Steves Mach 1 to say a '93 Mustang GT in SP. A Mustang is a Mustang as far as the rules go.

[Joe Foering]

Dave, If "any reclassification of cars...needs to be addressed to the SOLO Brd. at Hdqtrs", how were forced-induction cars moved to SM in the PHA series?

[mrevilracing]

I thought that all forced-induction cars had to run in SM or SM2 as a result of a motion made and passed at a PHA meeting; so that means a full prep ESP WRX would have to run in a SM class. Am I correct?

OK. I am thoroughly confused on this rules process nonsense!!!! Somebody lay it out. Step by step. Where does the SCCA come in? Where do the regions come in? Where does the PHA come in? Who trumps who and why?

[Rich Sweigart]

Rules process.
First, SCCA sets up the safety rules(rollcages, suits, helmets, etc) and procedure of how the events should be run(supps, flagging, course safety, etc.) from the Time Trials Rules. SCCA also provides us with class rules. Most of which are based from the Club Racing Rules(aka GCR), and some of the Solo classes(Street Prepared, Street Mod, and Solo Vee) from the Solo Rules. Here is where things get muddy, if your car is based from the GCR, you must go thru the Club Racing Board to get things changed, if your car is based from the Solo rules, you must go thru the Solo Board. Anything dealing with safety or procedure must go thru the Time Trials commettee who then sends it to the Club Racing Board.
Second, the regions are really nothing more than race promoters. Setup the event, get the workers, follow SCCA procedures.
Third, PHA is a series of Nediv SCCA level 3 and 4 Time Trials events. We try to work out a schedule of events between the various regions,provide series points, provide season ending trophies, and promotion. We also do make some class changes as it protains to the series, such as the Specials, Vintage, Historic, moving turbos to Street Mod. These rules are done at our meetings and are voted on at our meetings. These are series rules that must be printed in the event supps that the regions print out for each event and could be reviewed by the SCCA.
I hope that this has cleared things up.

Rich Sweigart

[NJ 03Mach1]

I can read between the lines here a bit so I'll share...

Steve... get out of Dan's sandbox.



JK obviously.




I don't know who said it, but I agree. ESP will be dominated by the newest car to come out. Is it fair? No not really, and there will be a time the Mach's will be as outdated as Dan L's 96(7?) Mustang is. It happens, nothing you can do but bite the bullet and either upgrade to the proper technology WITHIN the rules, or go to another class that allow's you cheaper mods and a better chance to win. It's how it goes in every sport, newer technology will always dominate older technology.


Stick a loose nut behind the wheel of a faster, better prepaired, newer technology powered vehicle and ladies and gentlemen.... I present to you, Steven Lewis. Whom I will be gunning for next year in the points race, provided his old age doesn't keep him from climbing in and out over that useless rollcage.

[mrevilracing]

Thanks Rich. I needed to see that in print so I could follow it. Joe F tried numerous times to convey all that to me and sorry to say, my thick head wasn't absorbing it. Sorry Joe!

[dlascoskie]

There is no provisions in the rules that really level the playing field for something like Steves Mach 1 to say a '93 Mustang GT in SP. A Mustang is a Mustang as far as the rules go.

Bingo, because you are limited to what you can do to keep up with the Joneses in HP in some classes, such as SP. As I said before, you may have some argument room on the updating/backdating side of things, but how in the world would you legally make a 93 Mustang GT (205 hp) comparable to an 04 Mach 1 (315 hp) ?? Tires or no tires, there is simply no comparison.


Nice Adam Quite the contrary. I'm not attacking Steve or anyone else on this issue. If my jokes come off that way, I sincerely apologize. We don't need any of that in the PHA.
I just don't see the SCCA's logic on the classes in SP (not just ESP) as it relates to hillclimbs. Once the topic was brought up, I decided to weigh-in like everyone else. I'm trying to help the PHA make educated decisions to enhance competition and encourage new drivers to come into the sport. Level playing fields are a part of every form of racing. And to me, it's a smarter business decision than saying "You need to upgrade to a new car." I think power to weight ratios do that well. I never said P/W ratios were the only criteria that should be looked at. Obviously, suspension, drive train and numerous other stats should be looked at. And the SCCA already does that. But as Dave said earlier, "SOLO II officials believe tight autocross courses level out the field. You hit it right on the head when you say gravity takes over here. In hillclimbs, power is everything. Even more so than road racing."

[NJ 03Mach1]

Dan,

Take our engine, put it in your car with proper tuning, suspension and tire and WE would be at the disadvantage due to your wieght advantage and there would be nothing we could do about it. No matter what the SCCA does to "make it fair" to one person, it's always going to be unfair to someone else. That's just how it is.

[mrevilracing]

Just remember, Adam, if you're betting on me and I pull another Turn 8, Duryea, ya can't blame me!

The only way to effectively level the playing field as I see it is 2 fold:

1. You'd have to take the lowest p/w ratio car to the highest and come up with a multiplier. Then you'd have to chart suspension changes possible per car. Chart possible exhaust mod combinations. And then chart any weight reduction possibilities. Chart possible tire combinations between street and DOT race tires.

2. Establish an inspection person to make sure everyone is following the rule to the T. Everything has to be weighed and measured. I think that would be very difficult to manage. It could be done, but the rule book for possible mods and multipliers would be as thick as the GCR.

I do understand your arguement. Getting people to abide by ALL the rules would be difficult at best.

[dlascoskie]

Dan,

Take our engine, put it in your car with proper tuning, suspension and tire and WE would be at the disadvantage due to your wieght advantage and there would be nothing we could do about it. No matter what the SCCA does to "make it fair" to one person, it's always going to be unfair to someone else. That's just how it is.

There's a 79 lb difference between the two cars, and a 100 hp difference.
10lbs = 1 hp...... so if I did what you suggested, I'd have a 8 hp advantage. That's not enough to change the P/W ratio of the two vehicles by even .01 point
(.093 compared to .091)
Which is good, it's level. However, it requires me to build a Mach 1 replica, instead of compete with a GT against relatively equal cars.

Again, 1 example in a much larger problem in more than 1 class.


Steve, to your points, we already have classes and rules that are enforced. I'm not suggesting that the process needs to change, just the way they group cars in some lopsided classes.

[jerdeitzel]

Bye no means do i want anyone to really take this crap seriously. If we ever figure it out what were saying maybe we can all sit down and really talk about it. I'm usually in these arguments just for argument sake. It keeps my wife from getting the full blow of my insanity.

[Steve Tumolo]

I GOT IT!!!!!! I have the answer!! REWARDS WEIGHT!! If you win a hill over at least one person in the "Street" classes you add 50#'s for the next event. It works in World Challenge

[mrevilracing]

Steve T - Adding 50#'s...hehe, ok, so I win this week. I'm goin home and spending 5hrs cutting out 50#'s of DynaMatt. After I win next week, I'm goin home and changing the driver's seat, next the passenger seat, then the air bags come out, the rear seat delete kit goes in(from 2000 Cobra R)...by the end of the season, I still win(arrogant thought of course) and have shaved 450#'s and spent $2000 extra. The process starts all over next year cause over the winter, I'll put it all back in, minus the F'n DynaMatt!! It is funny to think of though! Can you imagine!

Jeremy - ya know!!!!! Every time I see your post of anything, I just start thinking about how I can do a stealth install of an AWD in this Mach and come to SM. "Uh, yeah, can't open the hood cause the latch broke in the crash at Duryea. And can't pick it up because....the suspension is very delicate. Yeah, that's it." Mark, I know you're just chompin at the bit with a solution to go to SM too! Don't deny it.

As I look over the runs lists from this year at the courses, there are huge time variances in all classes. At Pagoda for instance, H1 fast time was 61.448, with the slowest time being 74.787. At Giants, EP fast time was 52.598, with the slowest time being 65.359. Those are just 2 classes with huge time swings. Street Prepared is pretty close in comparison.

By the way, I noticed a car in BSP at Giant's: 211A driven by Gary Polakoski in a Mercury Capri. What year was that Capri and was BSP where he should have been??

[Joe Foering]

I'm confused. Steve said you ADD 50 lbs when you win not SUBTRACT. If you win every event you've ADDED 450 lbs not taken it off. As for the Capri...it is the responsibility of the driver to properly class his car not the tech. inspectors. If you read the SOLO Rules, they will give you the class the car belongs in assuming no violation in mods. As for Hill/Class records... There seems to be an unwritten rule in hillclimbing: you don't protest me and I won't protest you. Over time,there have been a number of "suspect" cars that have held class/hill records (and do); everybody talks about them but nobody protests them. There is a proceedure in place for protests. It's sort of like the weather: everybody complains about it, but nobody does anything about it.