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For any discussions and suggestions about the PHA series supps

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Re: ITE

Post by dspgti »

I am having a few side bar conversations with Matt Rowe and Jeremy to understand a little better the direction each is heading. While we are kicking around some ideas, I thought I would ask an opinion.

Has anybody else looked at the Super Touring Rules? (They are available to download from the GCR on SCCA web site.) Does the PHA have the authority to use the class designation with the stated rules with the exception of not requiring the documentation of World Challenge or other series participation? How many are interested in such a class?

Keep in mind, just last year alone we saw entries in SPU, SPO, DP, and several ITE.

Dave Y.
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Re: ITE

Post by jerdeitzel »

Dave it look's to me that it says under cars eligible.

* Any car built under the ST rules.

Then it talks about world challange cars and documentation.

Okay i'm pretty confused. It says that IT cars are allowed in ST. Does this mean IT cars with IT safety or do they need to meet the higher ST safety?

ST safety isn't really listed in the section 9 very well. Is it considered touring or is it Production? If its production, then the safety stuff is pretty stiff compared to SS, touring, and IT classes.
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Re: ITE

Post by jerdeitzel »

Okay i'm starting to get a decent picture here. I'll try and post up the differences i can find between IT and ST later. As i'm sure your aware, IT has alittle less requirements. Not bye all that much tho.
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Re: ITE

Post by Matt Rowe »

IT has fewer safety requirements in part because it allows far fewer modifications.

If the intention is to allow cars that are more heavily modified than IT rules than I would expect the safety modifications to be more involved.

I think the problem I am having with following this discussion is it's not clear to me what gap in our classes that you are trying to fill.
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Re: ITE

Post by jerdeitzel »

Matt Rowe wrote:IT has fewer safety requirements in part because it allows far fewer modifications.

If the intention is to allow cars that are more heavily modified than IT rules than I would expect the safety modifications to be more involved.

I think the problem I am having with following this discussion is it's not clear to me what gap in our classes that you are trying to fill.
Matt, i am not trying to fill any gap in classes. I am trying to determine what rules if any, we want ITE to be! I have shown that about 50% or more of the regions are allowing ITE to be a pretty open class. If they allow wheel to wheel racing in these regions with the IT safety requirements, i would think that we would allow that also. Now if you believe that is wrong and you think ITE is something different please post what rules you would follow.
Last edited by jerdeitzel on Wed Jan 21, 2009 11:55 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: ITE

Post by dspgti »

As I see it, Super Touring IS basically an IT class as far as saftey rules with a few exceptions. First, if the World Challenge configuration is accepted, those cars would have to follow the Series Rules at that time. My guess is they had pretty extensive rollcage requirements. As far as fuel cells are concerened, it is stated they are not required if the stock tank is between wheel center lines and inside the chassis structure. The rest of the cars allowed are specifically Improved Touring and follows all IT saftey rules. Again my understanding is you can take an ITA, ITR, ITS car use all the allowable modifications like cam lift, alternate connecting rods, compression boosting up to 12:1, porting and other modifications that are allowed plus elaborate suspension changes are allowed and still the car runs with IT saftey rules.

The way I see it, we must provide for STO and STU classes. That is why I ask: can we accept the class as it stands and allow an exemption that the documents required to prove World Challenge type compliance be waved and allow all cars inclusion in the ST classes as long as they meet all saftey requirements of Improved Touring?

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Re: ITE

Post by jerdeitzel »

That sounds like a fine idea if i understood it correctly.

Now here are the safety differences that i found. Now please correct me if you see something wrong.

Super Touring.
1. Fire system Vs Fire Ext.
2. ****Fuel cell. (well as Dave said there is a rule that states if the tank is betweent the frame rails and inbetween the axles that its legal)
3. Scatter shield.- ( Something that i think isn't a bad idea anyway)
4. Now the rest is all roll cage issues. Basically you can't just go buy a bolt in autopower or Kirk cage and bolt it in too race. (now not huge things but things like front tube extenstions and a few other things)
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Re: ITE

Post by Matt Rowe »

dspgti wrote:As I see it, Super Touring IS basically an IT class as far as saftey rules with a few exceptions
I'm not sure where your are getting that from as the category covers 3 types of modifications.

World Challenge series cars which have significantly improved safety requirements to go along with great performance changes
ST specific built cars for which I could not find clear indication of what cage rules they must follow
IT cars that meet ALL current ITCS rules for allowable modifications and safety. (Intended to bolster car counts only as they are not competitive)
dspgti wrote:Again my understanding is you can take an ITA, ITR, ITS car use all the allowable modifications like cam lift, alternate connecting rods, compression boosting up to 12:1, porting and other modifications that are allowed plus elaborate suspension changes are allowed and still the car runs with IT saftey rules.
No, if you run a ITR, ITS, ITA, ITB or ITC car it must meet all current ITCS rules for modifications. If not than you must meet the ill-defined but definitely more involved safety requirements of a purpose built ST car.
dspgti wrote:The way I see it, we must provide for STO and STU classes. That is why I ask: can we accept the class as it stands and allow an exemption that the documents required to prove World Challenge type compliance be waved and allow all cars inclusion in the ST classes as long as they meet all saftey requirements of Improved Touring?
I don't see that based on how the class is defined. If a world challenge car shows up they would have to demonstrate they meet the most recent VTS sheet for their vehicle. Those modifications are very inconsistent from car to car and for us to waive them we are back to a run whatever you feel like and we have no way to prove you are actually fairly competing with other entries in the class. Now if someone wants to build a car to the ST specific rules okay that is defined although I need to contact national to understand what the safety specifications are.
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Re: ITE

Post by dspgti »

I think you are right Matt. I'll have to read the rules 6 or 7 more times before I fully understand them. I guess I missed the logical part about slug IT cars being included with rocket ships just so they could "experience a National event". :? Oh well, back to the drawing board. I'll come up some more bright ideas soon.

Dave Y.
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Re: ITE

Post by jerdeitzel »

Here are the roll cage differences i have found. They ARE not very well written or easlily understandable.

1. Horizontal front hoop brace the level of the dash.
2. Front tube extentions to the firewall.
3. attachment points are unlimited /must be integrated into the frame or chassie.

Oh and hood pins are required. lol.

Between what i posted before and these that is all i could find. And let me tell you that is a serious pain to read the rules and have to keep jumping back and forth.

So as it stands now all IT cars could run there, That could cut down on the classes things. Or it could open up 10 new records
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Re: ITE

Post by dspgti »

I believe the horizontal bar is required in IT and the tubes extending forward are optional but recommended. Most IT cars have them already. I think the main differences with the World Challenge type cars was the cage was required to be all welded and tubes needed to extend forward of the fire wall and brace the structure farther forward. When I look at some of those cars, they all had Petty bars, diagonals on the Halo Hop, X bracing down the back and tubes going farther back on the frame. They may have been installed for added saftey and not required, I'm just guessing here.

I think the only IT cars that would have any intention of running in ST would be ITS, ITR and the former ITE cars. If ITA, B or C wanted to run a national, all they have to do is pop out the lights and a few minor mods and run in Production. In fact that is kind of what I'm doing. Changing an ITB car into H/Production to run nationals.

So Jer, we need to keep coming up with ideas on how the ITE cars are going to classed in Time Trials.

Dave Y
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Re: ITE

Post by jerdeitzel »

pg 92 rule C of the GCR. IT car's are not required to have a front hoop bar the level of the dash. And the front forward bars are required in ST and just recommended in IT. Dave, enjoy the race and forget about this stuff for a few days.
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Re: ITE

Post by dspgti »

I'm wrong again! :oops: Nobody will ever listen to me if I keep getting everything wrong. That comes from me looking at the pretty pictures instead of reading the text carefully. Besides having a reading comprehension problem, I often let logic get in the way. Why a brace as structuraly important as the one horizontal at dash level be optional, just doesn't make sense to me. :roll:

You are right Jer. I need to let this go for a few days but I think I'll just start a new conversation that I also don't know anything about. See new thread.

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Re: ITE

Post by mrevilracing »

Quick silly question. How are the different regions allowing forced induction into any of the IT classes when it specifically states no forced induction in IT? Or is that rule new?

These specifications are part of the SCCA GCR and all automobiles shall conform with GCR Section 9.
A. PURPOSE
Improved Touring classes are intended to provide the membership with the opportunity to compete in low cost cars with limited modifications, suitable
for racing competition. To that end, cars will be models, as offered for sale in the United States. They will be prepared to manufacturer’s specifications except for modifications permitted by these rules.
Cars from the previous four (4) model years and the current model year will not be eligible. No car older than a 1968 model of any listed vehicle will be accepted for Improved Touring competition. Turbocharged/Supercharged
cars are not eligible for Improved Touring competition. Cars need not be eligible for state license or registration.
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Re: ITE

Post by Rich Sweigart »

Much like our Specials and Vintage/Historic classes, ITE class rules are put in the various regional supps. for each regional event that a region puts on, that is why there is 10+ different versions of ITE across the country. They can make up the rules as they go.


For the turbo thing in the IT rules comes from SCCA's mistrust of turbos and compliance issues. In the eighties,SCCA had compliance issues on boost pressures of Showroom Stock cars(hiden boost controls), combined with the lack of tools that most local tech crews had to check boost. The other problem that SCCA had was the Trans-Am series was being over run by turbocharged cars, which had a big impact on the GT-1 class at the National and Regional level road racing. That is why a Peugeot 505turbo can go so, fast.
RIch
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Re: ITE

Post by mrevilracing »

Thanks Rich.

I went and emailed SCCA to ask about IT in general and forced induction.
If you are talking about ITE, that is a regional only class that varies from region to region, and they can make whatever rules they want as long as the cars meet the safety specs of the IT category.
That was the answer. So, BMR/NEPA/StlCR can make up the rules as they wish. A good discussion/explaination should be what PHA's role is in all this. Here I thought PHA made the rules.
RIP Joe, my friend.

Must go faster!!!!
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Re: ITE

Post by dspgti »

Are you up to speed yet Steve? We will wait for you to catch up :lol:
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Re: ITE

Post by mrevilracing »

Oh, I'm up to speed alright.
RIP Joe, my friend.

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Re: ITE

Post by dspgti »

So, .....Where are we at?

PHA has no ITE class?

Right now we have one place for all Turbo/Super charged cars to run in, and that is Street Mod....but if they are stripped out race cars??? Specials Maybe??? So tell me agian, the Specials saftey rules?

WE MIGHT HAVE SOME WORK TO DO HERE.

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Re: ITE

Post by mrevilracing »

Wait a sec there Dave. PHA HAS an ITE class. Look at the records list and you'll see it. And ALL forced induction can run in there. It is an open class that those rules are set by the regions, not the PHA. PHA doesn't set rules. Only the regions do. That is something that really needs to be clarified because if BMR sets a rule, NEPA and StlCR don't have to follow it. In essence, if the Pagoda event has all forced induction from SP in SM, that doesn't mean it would be the same at Giants.
RIP Joe, my friend.

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