PA Hillclimb

Jeremy,

The supps are agreed to by the PHA at large so I would encourage you to bring this up at the next meeting. Personally, I tend to agree that we shouldn't confuse the classing system anymore by creating exceptions to existing classes. But as long as we agree as a group and all follow the supps there shouldn't be any issues.

The next look needs to be at the AWD cars. There is an advantage in cornering and they should be in their own class.

mrevilracing wrote:The next look needs to be at the AWD cars. There is an advantage in cornering and they should be in their own class.

I could start a real controversy with that one...but I won't. I have some interesting documentries from the 80's when Audi first came on the scene with the Quattro. Later they were outlawed after they were thought to have an "Unfair Advantage" (Title of the film). The truth of the matter is, it had a lot to do with the skill of the drivers, Hans Stuck, Hurly Haywood etc., and developing a technique compatable with the handling characteristics of AWD. The real advantage only showed up in wet conditions. In World Rally they were so dominant that Audi set the standard that is used to this day, short wheel base, turbo charged, all wheel drive.

I'll tell you a little story. The first time Aaron and I had any type of performance driving education was a track day put on by the Audi Quattro Club at Watkins Glenn(maybe 1992?). Aaron had a '85 4000 Quattro sedan that we had done a few mods to (springs, shocks, intake). My instructor was actually a Ferrari driver. During my session, I was coming up through the Esses and was watching a Porsche overtake me in my mirrors. At the final right hander onto the back straight, I went way wide left and pointed the Porsche to the right. All of a sudden my instructor is yelling, "don't go all the way out there", meaning I was too far left and in the loose marbels. Nothing happened, my line was smooth, I was able to maintain speed onto the straight. My instructors response was a sheepishly made comment, "oh, you have quattro, don't you? You would have never gotten away with that in 2WD"

So my take on AWD in a hillclimb? Yup, might have an advantage because our roads are less than a perfect road course surface, dampness, debris and a lack of traction in the driving line are usual. But they have some disadvantages, weight, drive line friction and power loss. You know what? Front wheel drive has an advantage at a hill climb as opposed the the track. And so on and so on.

I'm going to stick by our efforts to keep SP turbo cars in SM but I'm going to think twice about getting into another reclassification battle.

Dave Y

My only experience with the Rally Audi was when Buffum showed up at Chimney Rock the year after he broke the Pikes Peak record, about 1988. He attended the sponsor's party on Friday night before the race weekend and was telling everyone who would listen that he should break the hill record on Saturday. After hearing him repeat the line about four times, I told him he might want to take one run up the hill before he evaluated his chances.

On Saturday by the end of the second run, he was about 10th overall, and decided he would use the berms to go faster around the hairpins. When he returned from that third run, and producing about 30 minutes of work for the course workers, the event chair, Roger Minnick told him to stay on the pavement or he would be sent home. He did and finished 6th overall, about 4 seconds behind me and 7 seconds behind the winner, Mike Green.

At the trophy presentation, he came up to me and said "I wish you would have talked to me earlier Friday night, I guess it takes a formula car to win this hill".

Yes, I beat John Buffum on one great weekend 20 years ag0, at a little spot called Chimney Rock. And now I live just a few miles from that site that produced such great memories.
Happy New Year to all you PHA folks, and I look forward to seeing all of you in June.
George

Great story George. We watched John at Mt Washington years ago and he didn't win there either. Then there was Bruno Keribich who showed up at Duryea in 1995 with a copy of the famous Audi TQC. He was fast and set a new Rally Class record but broke the car after just a few runs. The record has held since then but it is only a 127.980. (Hold up all you guys that want to run in Rally now. It requires a Pro Rally License to register in that class).

Another story I'd like to tell. There were several of us Pro Rally and Audi TQC fans standing at the start line when Bruno took his first "Touring" run. Bruno was given the go ahead but waited a few seconds for the car in front of him to clear the first turn. He reved the engine, dumped the clutch and proceded to smoke the tires and lay 4 lines of rubber to the first turn. The officials at the start line were so startled and outraged that they started yelling and jumping around and I thought Lynn DeHart was going to get up and walk. That will always be my funniest sight at a hillclimb and the first time a saw a race car smoke all four.

Dave Y

Wait a minute. If I show up with a Rally car, I need a pro rally license to run it??? I gotta see that in writing. I can come with a 1000hp street car and be put into SM. What is so special about the rally class?

dspgti wrote:Great story George. We watched John at Mt Washington years ago and he didn't win there either. Then there was Bruno Keribich who showed up at Duryea in 1995 with a copy of the famous Audi TQC. He was fast and set a new Rally Class record but broke the car after just a few runs. The record has held since then but it is only a 127.980. (Hold up all you guys that want to run in Rally now. It requires a Pro Rally License to register in that class).

Another story I'd like to tell. There were several of us Pro Rally and Audi TQC fans standing at the start line when Bruno took his first "Touring" run. Bruno was given the go ahead but waited a few seconds for the car in front of him to clear the first turn. He reved the engine, dumped the clutch and proceded to smoke the tires and lay 4 lines of rubber to the first turn. The officials at the start line were so startled and outraged that they started yelling and jumping around and I thought Lynn DeHart was going to get up and walk. That will always be my funniest sight at a hillclimb and the first time a saw a race car smoke all four.

Dave Y

George, great story! I love stories, they bring back memories that should be shared with the next generations. Thanks.

And as i'm well aware of, AWD isn't going to do **** for me getting much closer to your records.

Well i've thought about that rally class actually, I've always wanted to do the O'neil rally school and then I can take a co-driver up the hill with me right? . And as for the Audi, I would love to see an AWD smoke them all the way up to the first turn. Running 285's hoosiers will stop my car from that possibility.

For the 50th of Duryea, we got a sanction for a special stage Rally and it was included in their series. Their times were totaled up for all runs (an interesting idea for a special trophy in TT?). There were a lot of jokes about having to take a navigator along to find the Fire Tower. It was actually required by their rules. The answer for you Jeremy is, "NO WAY".

Here we go with all the special rules again? The fact is, SCCA no longer has a sanction for Rally. Time Trials still retains the class, but they have to follow TT rules. Hense, no passangers. I'd look into rules covering the classification of your car or any car in Rally before taking that step to run a hillclimb.

Dave Y

Dave, you're saying that you need a Pro Rally Lic. to compete in Rally class? Does Al Corazzo (a major sponsor of Weatherly) have a pro rally license? He runs that class and wins. This is no reflection on Al, but I question the need for a pro license...where does it state that-in writing.

Joe,

It was included in the supplement regulations that a Rally class will be offered to drivers who hold a divisional or national PRO Rally license and whose car are made to Club/Pro Rally specs.
It might have been dropped but, I have seen Solo Vee referenced as C Modified, which it hasn't been for years.

Rich

Could one of you guys point me to where it says you need a pro rally license in either the TTR or anywhere on the SCCA site. Can't find that info in the supps...but I only have a copy of what was given for spring jefferson.

CAR ELIGIBILITY: Open to all categories listed in the current GCR, Solo II Street Prepared, Solo V, Street Mod, Street Mod 2 and the
Specials classes. Cars will be classed in SCCA classes for championship points. Historic, Vintage and Rally classes will also be eligible as
per the SCCA TTR and these supplemental regulations.
This is all I could find.

It was a PHA rule that was put in the supps. to deter non-Rally cars and drivers from running the Rally class, usually put in before the Specials Rules. It is possible that it has been omitted from the supps. over time.

Perhaps, we can dump Rally cars in Street Mod too, LOL!

Rich

Boy i'm glad i'm not the one who brought up rally cars! Yet another grey area that anyone that would be interested in doing hillcilmbs could not find an answer too. I think i'm understanding the " come and just race, and we'll talk about class later" idea.

If i remember correctly Al's car is probably an ESP car. I see him closer too ESP then SM.

I was under the impression that Al was a Rally licensed driver with the organization that took over from SCCA? When did the wording in the Supps get dropped about the Rally class? Maybe when SCCA Rally was dropped. Maybe it was just forgotten?

Why was that done in the first place? You see, many years ago (10 or 12), we had lots of drivers and classes had as many as 10 entries. So, drivers would jump around and make up classes so they could run by themselves. Sound familiar?

Don't you think it is about time we start cleaning up this class thing?

Dave Y

Dave, SCCA says that we must provide all SCCA classes with an opportunity to run...that doesn't mean we can't consolidate classes for the purpose of trophy awards. The idea of "cleaning up this class thing" sounds very much like what you alluded to (in a negative way) in your second paragraph as something that happened in the past and we want to avoid.

jerdeitzel wrote:Boy i'm glad i'm not the one who brought up rally cars! Yet another grey area that anyone that would be interested in doing hillcilmbs could not find an answer too. I think i'm understanding the " come and just race, and we'll talk about class later" idea.

If i remember correctly Al's car is probably an ESP car. I see him closer too ESP then SM.

Except for that snail shaped thing hanging off the exhaust manifolds.

Mark Aubele wrote:Except for that snail shaped thing hanging off the exhaust manifolds.

I was just about to bring that up.

Rich Sweigart wrote: to deter non-Rally cars and drivers from running the Rally class, usually put in before the Specials Rules.
Rich

Aren't there rules as to what is/isn't a rally car? Or is it an open class? And why would the rule prevent someone from buying a rally car and entering in that class? I would be livid if I showed up with one of those cars and someone told me I couldn't run in that class because I didn't have a pro rally license.

It is tough to get all you guys up to speed on 40+ years of hillclimbing, why we did this or that in the past.

So, here it goes. BMR for many years was made up of 2 major groups, hillclimbers and Rallist. Duryea for many years was not only a hillclimb but, a Club Pro Rally. We would run for times, each run for the Rally cars was a stage.
Sometimes, in the down time between Pro Rallys, these Rallists would run other hillclimbs. At one of our events a non-Rally car entered as a Rally car and blew everyone in the Rally class away. That is why the rule was adopted.
Since that time, Pro Rally was dropped from the SCCA due to insurance problems that the program had.

Rich

What other class do you want to discuss, GT Pinto?

Rich, I've appreciated your prior references to past PHA rules and practices ... there is nothing new under the sun, but each new group seems to think that they're the first to think about these things...and the first with answers. Deja-vu all over again.

At least it keeps the forum active.

Larry