Time Trials Classing

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Time Trials Classing

Post by Dogpatch »

Mike,

Mike I agree with you... sounds like SM is good. Jeremy do you agree or have a second opinion.

I find it interesting that the TTR does not have a list of Classes available. The only place I have found a listing of classes (without backup data) is on the Record's page of event results. I actually asked Morg to post the question because I find it very difficult to class cars beyond road race classes in the GCR. I asked SCCA tech services for support and got a speedy reply that was of no help.
We definitely need a committee (willing group) to help with classing.
Tech can safety check cars when we know the class it is in, but we don't usually have the time to class cars.

Any thoughts,

Kurt
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Re: Classfication Question

Post by miniacmike »

Kurt,

I would be willing to help on classing but I think it would help to have multible people on this. Brake up the classes into groups and have one or two people per class group. That way they could become "experts" on those classes and those classes only. I think it's too many classes for one or two people only.

Anyone else?
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Re: Time Trials Classing

Post by Matt Rowe »

I split this discussion off from the original topic thread because I think it deserves it's own topic.

To answer a question I have seen asked in various forms, there are a few reasons that time trials does not have it's own classes. First, the intent of the program is to provide greater flexibility for regions of the country to define classes that work best for them. Where else have you seen a rulebook that basically say you can create whatever classes you want. The opening to section 10.1 sums it up well:

The Time Trials program shall use a class structure which will maximize participation potential and enhance local competition. This allows each local series to tailor its classes to suit, so long as the following minimum requirements are met:


Beyond that it goes on to provide some guidance

* All classes listed in the current GCR (both National and Regional) must be accommodated. This rule is to allow a place to compete for any car prepared to a GCR class but does not restrict classes from being consolidated because of limited participation.
We are under club racing so we can't turn away club racing cars, but if an event wanted it could combine them all into 1 catchall class and put Pitman's FV against Kerry Hitt's GT1, should he stop by Duryea again.

* It is strongly recommended that the Solo Street Prepared and Street Mod class cars are accommodated provided that they have the required Time Trials safety equipment.
A gentle reminder that we consider some of the "entry level" and streetable solo classes so that we make it easier for new people to get started. Still it's just a recommendation.

* SCCA Vintage-legal cars will also be eligible for Time Trials. These cars may be prepared to current SCCA Vintage rules, and the burden of proof of legality shall fall to the competitor.
Don't want to forget the old cars...no comments about their drivers.

* Other classes may be adopted locally as needed, so long as safety requirements are met. These classes may include Specials, Rally, Legends, or other classes. All such classes will be listed in the Supplemental Regulations for the series or event.
And finally, and this is the big one, here is where we allow the regions to define what they need to serve their individual needs provided it meets some basic safety guidelines. Where else in SCCA do you see an option to create "run what you brung" classes?

Now we could put a list of minimum classes within the TTR, but then everytime Solo or Club Racing adds (or changes the class name) the TTR is out of step. We found it easier to point people to those rules.

The other suggestion I have seen here is for TT to create their own set of classes. While that may work in some pockets of the country, currently it would be challenging to cover such a wide range of participants and events. What works well for PHA events (the new Modified Legends class) would make no sense to the southwest where they might prefer a spec GTI class. We could put each class in the rulebook but it would quickly grow and we would have multiple overlapping classes and a situation even more confusing than we have today. Imagine the new person trying to decide if they should prep their car to hillclimb FWD A, fast and furious C or jalopy 3 only to find out the one they picked is only used 3000 miles away.

This is a lot to absorb and I'm sure there will be questions so I'll stop here for now. Bear in mind I am just trying to provide a perspective from the rules makers point of view, one which has to look far beyond the PHA and try to put in place something flexible enough to cover the entire country. That doesn't mean I don't appreciate the input and I would love to hear some suggestions as long as they will work once the nationwide perspective is considered.
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Re: Time Trials Classing

Post by Dogpatch »

Hi Matt,

I understand exactly what you are saying and I agree with your assessment. I seriously think we should have a classing committee of 5-8 people and a place on the forum just for classing questions.

By the way all the new Modified Inex class did was add another class and move ALL existing participants of the present Stock Inex class to the new one. Not one of the current Inex cars are legal for the stock Inex class. Hmmm.

April 2 is the next PHA meeting. Anyone interested in being part of this committee should be there if possible.

Hey Morg... this is right up your alley. Are you interested in forming this committee? Sorry to put you on the spot but this is a serious problem and needs to be addressed.

Kurt
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Re: Time Trials Classing

Post by jerdeitzel »

Kurt, I will look to see what i can find out about that car.

Matt, Would it not be worth it to contact the other regions that hold TT's and see if we are on any commen gound as to classing? And from what i see there are only a handful of regions that do a significant TT program. ( please correct me if i'm wrong)

From a region who is trying to start a bigger TT program i will tell you what i was going to do. I was going to make up classing just like you stated could be done. Sure it's not going to be perfect but when your talking 30-50 people at and event if we run all the classes that PHA ran nobody would compete against a single person. (slight exageration). Unfortunatly we are in a serious prediciment with Beaverun and the new owners that our plan for 3 TT's on the BR north course may not happen now. What the classes were to be and if it was going to work was is still something that i was working out. I have some idea's but from the way things are recieved on this forum i really don't want to go over them here.

And to really get the ball rolling. PHA has too many classes! Of courese what works for us won't work for all the regions becuase we are using too many. Why on earth does anyone want to run in a class with nobody in it? Everyone says they want fewer classes but nobody is willing to deal with what that means. (this is a tuff problem tho, because we do have records we have been keeping and that is almost reason enough that we CAN"T change things now)

I don't think there is a clear answer.

I'm not sure that classing is really the root of some of our problems. Most people ask "what class should i run". We should stop there IMO and say what safety cage/bar do you have or are planning on doing? If its a roll bar then say go find a class in the SOLO book (We have to at least allowed prepared cars also). If its a a cage say go find a GCR class. I mean you have to keep the specials and the vintage stuff but to have classes open in both the SOLO and GCR for the exact same car prep (pretty much) is just too confusing. Does this make sense at all? Please tell me where my logic is at fault if so? And i think it has been proven that cage vs. rollbar has nothing to do with speed at this time in regards to what is required safety wise
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Re: Time Trials Classing

Post by Dogpatch »

Hi Jeremy,

SCCA requires us to have all of the road racing classes listed in the GCR. An they want us to make room for any Solo 2 cars even if we have to make up classes.

Classes with less than 3 entries should be subject to bumping just like Solo Classes. Classes that don't average at least 3 cars in class for the season should not have a Class Champion. All records set should count no matter how many cars in class but would like to see the car inspected for confirmation of proper class before leaving the event. In my opinion... just rambling

Kurt
Last edited by Dogpatch on Fri Mar 18, 2011 10:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Time Trials Classing

Post by jerdeitzel »

Let me clarify also that if you had a cage you could run a SOLO class if you wanted but you can't run a GCR class. I don't see how there is harm in this for any region around the country.

edit: The whole roll cage vs roll bar requirement still to me seems alittle vague when it comes to making up classes.
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Re: Time Trials Classing

Post by jerdeitzel »

I have an idea. A class for misfit roll bar only cars!

I have to stop this discussion becuase its getting late.
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Re: Time Trials Classing

Post by Matt Rowe »

Jeremy, yes I am in contact with divisions throughout the country by way of the other divisional TT program managers. So far we haven't been able to identify a class structure common between the different areas.

Also, I did state that the "run what you brung" mentality does not carry one caveat of meeting safety standards equivalent to existing classes. E.g. tube frame cars need to meet the cage, fuel cell, etc requirements of a GT which is a tube frame class. So no, you can't call a trans am car GTX and run just a bar. What I meant by that is within SCCA I can't think of any other areas organizations that encourage the the regions to define classes that work best for them.

I absolutely agree that PHA, the GCR and Solo all have too many classes. And individually I hear the same comments, until it comes time to eliminate a particular class. That is when the participants in that class, somewhat understandably, dig in their heels and fight to keep their class. In general everyone likes class consolidation, just not their class.

I do like the idea of a bumping order and that idea has been talked about before. It sounds like a good topic to bring up for discussion in a couple of weeks. I also like the idea of a classing committee. One other thought is a flow chart of sorts to help guide people through the process.

Overall, it's a great discussion. Hopefully some other people will chime in as well.
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Re: Time Trials Classing

Post by jerdeitzel »

Matt, A GT1 car requires a cage but, a GT2-3 car does not. If they are all GT (tube frame) classes what is the ruling on what requires a cage in a made up class? How fast of a GT car it is? And is any non tube frame car okay with just a roll bar? (ex. We now have Super touring over class that is not required to have a cage per the TTR. Yet, that is one serious fast class)

Also, If i made up a class for example (super mod) which i could put my car into and also a GT1 car. Are you saying that my car would be legal with just a roll bar and the GT1 car still requires a cage in the same class?

edit: A flow chart is a great idea! That would really help.
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Re: Time Trials Classing

Post by miniacmike »

Love the idea of a flow chart. Just some ideas,
A listing of current classes allowed, used by PHA
A brief desription of classes...STREET PREPARED---Lightly modified+interior
STREET MOD,2,F----Heavly modified+interior
A direction of where to find rules for said classes on SCCA
What order to folllow GCR,TTR,etc.

I would still be willing to help on a classing commitee. I think everyone is bringing up some great points.
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Re: Time Trials Classing

Post by Matt Rowe »

Jeremy, good point, there is a distinct difference between GT1 and the rest of the GT classes so it isn't the cleanest example.

The exact text from section 11 of the TTR is:

If the vehicle does not fall into a Club Racing class, the cage should be prepared to the GCR equivalent or greater (for example, a tube-frame Special car should be compared to a GT class cage, while a street-driven car that ends up in Special because of odd modifications could be comparable to a Production or IT cage).

So the thought process is what GCR class is closest, then you apply those equivalent GCR safety rules, including any exceptions allowed by the TTR. I'll admit it's not the easiest thing to interpret, it depends on some judgment by the officials. But the alternative is trying to craft an overly complex rule.

In your example, if you created a class (super mod) which a GT1 car could fit into then it would require a full cage. Similarly if you created a class (GTX) that was 99% of GT1 but GT1 cars wouldn't be allowed in because they have widget B and which is not allowed in GTX the class would still require a full cage as it is closest to GT1. Sorry, no trying to be clever to get around the intent which is part of the reason the rule isn't written to be too specific.

Mike, that is along the lines of what I was thinking. Good ideas on the references at the end to point them to the right rulebooks.
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Re: Time Trials Classing

Post by dspgti »

jerdeitzel wrote:I have an idea. A class for misfit roll bar only cars!
Where did all this logical discusion come from? We must be getting civilized. 8)

Jeremy: good idea. I got hammered when I brought up the idea of "Undeclared" class. I thought it made sense but it's adding another group, but that should mean nothing since it is a non trophy run group.

I would volunteer to be on the classing committe if Morg is the chairman. I like the idea of specialty areas of each member. I think I know the GCR classes of IT, Production and maybe GT.

I assume this a recommendation committe, not the official ruling?

Dave Y.

PS. I don't think I can make the April 2 meeting.
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Re: Time Trials Classing

Post by Rich Rock »

I want to make sure I understand what you guys are thinking. The purpose of a "classing committee" would be what, exactly? To help new people figure out where they belong? To inspect and determine that every single car entered in an event is in the proper class? To come up with a system that would replace the current classification system while reducing the total number of classes? All of the above? Something else?

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Re: Time Trials Classing

Post by Matt Rowe »

My impression was a group of people that would be able to advise a new driver on what class(es) he might best fit into. Not sure if others had the same idea, or wanted to take this further.

I believe we have had classing committees before to look at consolidation and alternate classes.
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Re: Time Trials Classing

Post by Mwilson »

Also checking existing drivers who may be classed incorrectly due to a variety of reasons. Wrong tires, Limited slip or no limited slip, Suspension, Car type and year, engine displacement, to name a few. My suggestion would be that any car that Wins a class or sets a record be checked for proper classing. If the car passes, the win and record stand. If the car is not classed properly the record and win are invalid and no points would be issued. This procedure would be published before the season to let those drivers that know they are not classed properly make the necessary changes. There are some records and wins that were obtained with cars that were not classed correctly. In my opinion this is not fair to the new drivers that come on board with a legally classed car. The inspection of cars would only need be done at a few selected events only known by the people involved in the process. At the drivers meeting it could be announced that all winning cars and all cars that break a record at that particular event will be scrutinized for correct classing. If there is a dispute as to the findings, the committee would meet and discuss the infraction and render their report to the "Head Honcho" in charge for a final ruling. Not really that hard to do in most cases because the rules for classing are clearly defined. If any driver suspects that a car is classed incorrectly He or She can come to a Committee member to have the car checked for compliance. No names need to be given, simply the committee member or members would go to the car in question and say there is some concern that your car is in the wrong class for the following reasons. If you choose not to change to become class compliant there is always Specials 1, 2, and 3 you can run in as long as you meet the safety requirements and engine displacement. This would help level the playing field for all drivers. Don't you agree?
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Re: Time Trials Classing

Post by miniacmike »

Matt,
I'm am under the same impression.......mainly too help new drivers and seasoned drivers who may be building new cars or switching classes.

Morg,

Boy that sounds like a giant can of worms, but you have a very valid point. Lets see what others have to say?!
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Re: Time Trials Classing

Post by miniacmike »

Sorry, just had a quick thought as I was submitting the last post, wouldn't some of this fall under the protest section?
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Re: Time Trials Classing

Post by Dogpatch »

Guys,

The committee should be an advisory group... giving the car owner a chance to change class if a classing error is pointed out. If no corrective action is taken to satisfy the committee, the Chief Steward of the event would be notified of the alleged non-compliance and make a ruling after hearing both sides. The committee should be readily available to all competitors for classing info either by phone, e-mail, a forum topic heading for classing cars, and even at an event. The idea is too ensure that new cars are classed properly before they run an event. The idea of inspecting record breaking cars for class compliance is important to maintaining the integrity of class records. It is also important for each class to police itself to help ensure a level playing field.

We certainly have not made it very easy for the new competitor to come and run our events because of classing concerns and this committee would certainly make it easier to prepare a car for competition.

Morg is obviously willing the lead the parade and even though I am primarily concerned with car safety I'll glady add my support by joining the committee.

Kurt
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Re: Time Trials Classing

Post by miniacmike »

Sounds good! Thanks Kurt. Providing my work doesn't get in the way, I'll see you guys at the April meeting. I guess we'll see where tis goes.
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