roll cage questions

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dspgti
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Re: roll cage questions

Post by dspgti »

Jim Leininger wrote:dspgti wrote:
Jim, What the heck? No wonder it has taken you so long to get going. You research too much
:wink: Sorry Dave, I don't say as much as some people but when I do I try to be organized, informative and accurate, just my nature I guess! :lol:
The message here is, how can we shorten the process for everyone?


Exactly why I went into so much detail, for those who follow. Can some of these discussions be organized into "stickies" for us noobs to find easier?
Interesting idea Jim! Perhaps a flow chart? Start here! you did this? go there! You're starting over here, go there! Select this tab or that one? That would be cool. So, how good are you at setting up this stuff? Yes, I'll help.

Dave Y
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Re: roll cage questions

Post by 5.0rx »

So as in kill switch does it just have to kill the spark and fuel or do you mean a battery cut off switch. Cause i have 2 switches in the car one controls the relay for the electric fan the other control the relay that powers the fuel pump and ignition module. Would that work.
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Re: roll cage questions

Post by Rich Sweigart »

Kill switch, racing seat with seat back brace(certain FIA seats do not require brace), welded in GCR GT class style cage(Special 3 is not a street car class), steel braided fuel lines in driver compartment, possibly a rear bulkhead if, fuel tank is exposed, sunroof must be bolted in if, car is equiped, with all of the extra power a scattershield and drive shaft loop shall be installed as per GT rules, catch tank.

Rich
Rich Sweigart
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Re: roll cage questions

Post by Rich Sweigart »

Kill switch needs to kill everything. A spark from the radiator fan coming on, could set the whole car on fire.
Rich Sweigart
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Re: roll cage questions

Post by Rick Kase »

Rich is correct, specials classes require the max as far as safety items. Use the GCR GT specs.

Yes the kill switch must disconnect all power (put it on the neg leg). ALSO it you run an alternator the kill switch must also shut the engine down when the switch is thrown, some systems will run with the battery out of the circuit. A special kill switch with a resister included will do this. The resister grounds the points when the kill switch is thrown and kills the engine.
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Re: roll cage questions

Post by dspgti »

I wish I was so confident when I spout out rules and regs. I have run into so many conflicting opinions that I just don't want to say "That is the way it is".

But I do know kill switches. Don't go with the TWO terminal switch that you can buy at any Walmart, AutoZone parts house around the corner. You need what I think is refered to as a 4 Termanal (Ithink it acually has 6) "With a Resistor" kill switch. Costs a lot more :shock:

I don't know squat about automotive electrics but a two pole kill switch only takes out the battery. The alternator keeps putting out energy to keep the car running after you interupt the circuit. The "EXPENSIVE" switch shuts down the coil and takes the resulting HUGE current build up and discharges it to the resistor or diode or some such piece of electronic crap and runs it to ground instead of blowing up your alternator.

I'm sure some electrical expert will tell that my theory is all wrong, but that is the way it works.

Dave Y

You know, we tell so many people to read the rules and we can't can't agree on the interpition ourselves. WHAT THE >>?>.
dspgti
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Re: roll cage questions

Post by dspgti »

Maybe the rest of you have 2009 rules but I was going by 2008 rules.

11.4. HILLCLIMB (LEVEL 4)
Roll cages (as specified in the GCR) are required for the following classes: GT1, Specials, Super Production, all Formula classes, all Sports Racer classes, open GT, and open Production vehicles. In these vehicles, the roll cage structure must meet current GCR requirements for the specific class. If the vehicle does not fall into a Club Racing class, the cage should be prepared to the GCR equivalent or greater (for example, a tube-frame Special car should be compared to a GT class cage, while a street-driven car that ends up in Special because of odd modifications could be comparable
to a Production or IT cage).

I'm sorry if I'm a year behind but it would be nice if we all had the same information.

Dave Y
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Re: roll cage questions

Post by jerdeitzel »

5.0 RX, Don't be discouraged just yet, I'll get into it alittle later this evening.
#88 SM
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dspgti
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Re: roll cage questions

Post by dspgti »

Master Battery Cutoff Switch with Alternator Protection
We carry the highest quality master battery switches available. (See note below on how to spot a lower quality clone.)

This switch has three sets of contacts for cars with alternators. The main contacts disconnect the battery while the auxiliary contacts disconnect the ignition coil and short the alternator output to ground through a 3 ohm resistor that is furnished with the switch. A removable actuating key with splash guard, weather-proof cap, resistor and installation instructions are included. (Resistor lead configuration may vary from the photograph shown.) Don't forget to purchase an "Off" Decal (part #3356, sold separately).

Question: How do I know if I'm looking at the genuine article and not a lower quality clone?

Answer: The terminals of the genuine highest-quality switches are plated with a tin-alloy and are therefore silver colored. Lower quality clones have unplated brass terminals. In addition, genuine switches are shipped with half-height nuts while clones are usually furnished with full height nuts.

Over the years we've heard about dozens of DNF's caused by unreliable master battery switches that were purchased elsewhere. Is saving a few dollars worth risking a DNF?

Click Here to view the wiring diagram.
4430 $54.99 In

Qty Part No. Price Stock Status


Sorry, I could create a link to the Pegasus catalog so I just copied it and pasted. GO TO Pegasus.

Dave Y
dspgti
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Re: roll cage questions

Post by dspgti »

Thanks Jeremy, You can see it is getting a little late in the day and I'm getting a little frustrated. Maybe you can get him to talk to you direct so you can convince him it is worth the aggrevation in the long run.

Dave Y
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Re: roll cage questions

Post by 5.0rx »

I'm fine with the cage and kill switch and everything but i can see all the crazy safety stuff on like the indy cars and other actual special cars but the rule about swapping and engine from the same brand car is whats keeping from having and easier time with the safety end of things. Its not like its a really fast car that 3rd gen rx7 will still dust my stock 5.0. I just wish the rulebook was more informing about my class prob.
dspgti
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Re: roll cage questions

Post by dspgti »

5.0rx wrote:I'm fine with the cage and kill switch and everything but i can see all the crazy safety stuff on like the indy cars and other actual special cars but the rule about swapping and engine from the same brand car is whats keeping from having and easier time with the safety end of things. Its not like its a really fast car that 3rd gen rx7 will still dust my stock 5.0. I just wish the rulebook was more informing about my class prob.
It's not about where you are at, It is where you could be. Let me be blunt. You won't be as fast as a fully race prepared ITA or CSP level RX7. But what if? Just this past Sunday I was watching a program called "Gears". They are doing a project to put a 5.0 Mustang motor in a first gen Miata. They go over all the stuff with a kit to install an off the self "Salvage Yard motor" that has about 250 HP. But, they are not stopping there. They are are actually installing a Pro built 500 HP motor. And what if they Supercharge it? Where do we stop? How do we know how good of an engineer you are? If things go real bad because you made a miscalculation about what components will hold up to your modifications, we would like you to have a safe outcome.

The goal of SCCA as good or bad as it is, has tried to get cars of the same performance level to race against each other to see who the best driver is, Not who has the fastest car. When you break out of the standard classifications, you are on your own. We have a class for you but there are rules and we won't gaurantee you will be competitive but we will try to make you safe.

dave Y
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Re: roll cage questions

Post by 5.0rx »

Which is fine i wanna be safe to but i need to know what i need to run, and what cage i have to get get since its looks like they take a month for those companys to build them. The rulebook is so hard to follow for my particular circumstances with the swap. and this leads me to believe i can get away with a little less safety items. It doesnt bother me that i will be in a class against full blown race cars i just wanna run and pass tech insp. 11.4. HILLCLIMB (LEVEL 4)
Roll cages (as specified in the GCR) are required for the following classes: GT1, Specials, Super Production, all Formula classes, all Sports Racer classes, open GT, and open Production vehicles. In these vehicles, the roll cage structure must meet current GCR requirements for the specific class. If the vehicle does not fall into a Club Racing class, the cage should be prepared to the GCR equivalent or greater (for example, a tube-frame Special car should be compared to a GT class cage, while a street-driven car that ends up in Special because of odd modifications could be comparable
to a Production or IT cage).
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Re: roll cage questions

Post by jerdeitzel »

Here is a thread you should check out. http://www.pahillclimb.org/phpBB3/viewt ... f=7&t=1840. This is a fine example of the kind of cars that would fit into a open ITE or similar (mid-level unlimited class). Please feel free to support me in my campaign.

It is crazy that you can build a SM car with 1000hp and run with a roll bar and you, will have to meet the most stringent safety to run a car that is barely past SM. But rules are rules.
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5.0rx
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Re: roll cage questions

Post by 5.0rx »

Is there someone to contact to actually find the true answer of what i'm gonna need like someone who does the tech insp or classification.
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Re: roll cage questions

Post by jerdeitzel »

Well i'm sure you will get clarification but, they usually say read the rules. And from what you posted from the rules it looks as if IT rules do apply. Which then means the bolt in roll cage should be legal. Kill switch was required either way. Bye the way you are actually helping us learn were the breakdown's occur in the recruiting process. We are trying to attract more people to the hills.
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Re: roll cage questions

Post by 5.0rx »

I can see its hard to figure it out because the whole in between classes thing i occasionally drive this car so i really am hoping to avoid the crazy cage I just figured i'd be in sm just like the autox i did, now i find out that i may need that cage and i'm like oh god, i think because of these reasons there are less cars racing i understand the need for safety its just like in drag racing the faster the car the bigger requirement cage wise are implemented i think thats how it works, even though its totally diff. spectators would love to see more variety of cars on the hill. So if i carve mazda v-8 in my valve covers would that put me in s/m class (just kidding).
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Re: roll cage questions

Post by FV195 »

their are a few of us that do tech, it is not part of what we do to decide your class. we make sure it is safe. a lot of people will tell you to decide on a class and build a car for it. but it seems you have a car and your trying to find where it goes. I as a tech inspector don't agree with all the rules. SM only needs a bar? I think cages should be required in all classes. Please don't kill me! they are safer. and being a formula car driver I have to have one. ask any one that has crashed hard and they will tell you "put a cage in it" no matter what it is. OK showroom stock, they can slide on the cage if you ask me. but If I was driving one it would have a cage. my decition. I have thought about putting a high front hoop in my FV. but now that I mostly road race. I'm not going to. but if it was hills only I would do it.
THOR
tech when I can make the events, sadly it will be less this year, but at least two hills. have to plan my trip to get in two hills and a RR at summit. expencive month! plus gas to and from Florida.
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Re: roll cage questions

Post by iownthemountains13 »

so i believe i got everything the 4 point roll bar will work in my 240sx with a sr20det swap i'll definitely be in the the street mod correct? just gotta be sure before i jump in and start my build has anyone clarified the 1 piece seat rule yet? and any idea when the new 2009 rules are coming out
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Re: roll cage questions

Post by dspgti »

5.0rx wrote:Is there someone to contact to actually find the true answer of what i'm gonna need like someone who does the tech insp or classification.
Joe Foering is Chief of Tech. You can send him an IM or call 610-944-9515. There usually is an early annual tech session that you could get your car teched before the season starts. There are also tech inspectors that will come to you to pre-tech so to speak or arrange with Joe to meet with him to get your cage stamped and new log book filled out.
jerdeitzel wrote:Here is a thread you should check out. http://www.pahillclimb.org/phpBB3/viewt ... f=7&t=1840. This is a fine example of the kind of cars that would fit into a open ITE or similar (mid-level unlimited class). Please feel free to support me in my campaign.

It is crazy that you can build a SM car with 1000hp and run with a roll bar and you, will have to meet the most stringent safety to run a car that is barely past SM. But rules are rules.
I'll support you Jeremy if you support a rule on all SM cars must have an IT level cage (just kidding, I'll support you anyway). Also keep in mind that there is a movement being presented to require GCR cages in All Classes covered by the GCR that includes all Regional Type classes like ITE. Another words, you run in IT, cage it.

Dave Y
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