ITE/Classing of street legal "swapped" cars

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Mark Aubele
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ITE/Classing of street legal "swapped" cars

Post by Mark Aubele »

Can we have an open discussion on how with 138 classes (obvious slight exaggeration), we do not have one class where a street legal 240z with an LS1 swap can run? ITE seems to be the perfect, logical place for a car with a stock firewall, full cage, and engine swap to compete. As ITE stands right now (apparently from recent events, certainly not as the rules are written) it is basically SM and SSM for cars with no carpet, which is silly.

The SP classes make zero sense, as they are intended for autocross which has absolutely no basis in what a car will run at a hillclimb. Zero.

I think a serious discussion needs to be had. It is time to stop acting as if we are an autocross or road race and either slightly modify rules to give cars a place to run, or even better DRASTICALLY reduce classes based on what cars are actually running. There is no reason my car, the Vrabel Corvette, Kendrick's BMW, the 240z, and the Lewis' Mustang are all in different classes.

As the rules are written in ITE, Cameron's 240z was every bit as legal as Kendrick's BMW, so why was it kicked out of ITE? Personal opinion? I know for damn sure it wasn't Kendrick as I know he would love the competition being the competitor and the excellent driver he is. Was it perceived danger? Cameron's car makes like 360 at the wheels. The Lewis Mustang makes 600 and the cage may as well be a 200lb xmas decoration. And it is perfectly legal to have a 1000rwhp Mustang in SM. With a rollbar. Sounds fun. Donations?

But no, let's make street legal cars compete against tube frame race cars and Indy cars, that makes perfect sense.
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Re: ITE/Classing of street legal "swapped" cars

Post by dspgti »

Hey Mark,
You touch on many subjects that are close to my heart. So why do we have to have so many classes?
But first, lets start with the intent of ITE. A few years ago, I was on the Supp rules committee with Jeremy D as the chairman. While I had my own opinion of what ITE should be, as did other SCCA officials, I was in agreement with the final outcome as being the best thing for PHA.
ITE is a regional club racing class created by our Division, NEDIV. If you go to the NEDIV web site and look up regional rules, you will see what our division intended for eligibility. To summarize, it was created to allow cars from various Pro and amateur racing series both in and out of SCCA and include International racing series as well. Just within the past couple of years SCCA also created the Super Touring classification as well to allow the Pro series to run national events and qualify for the runoffs. Since there was already a class for Pro cars (STU, STO, STL), the recommendation for PHA was to exclude the Pro series but concentrate on allowing cars from any appropriate sanctioning body, NOT OTHERWISE CLASSED, to run in ITE. The requirements are: it must be a series with a set of specs, series of points races or championship outcome. They include but not limited to: American Iron, Porsche Cup, E30 cup,etc. The competitor must posses the series spec, log book and factory manuals to prove eligibility. Simply put, the entrant needs to apply and present proof why they qualify for that class.
Lets be specific about the 240Z with an LS1. He would need to show a specific race series that allows you to pick any production chassis you like and shoe horn in the biggest engine from any manufacture you can (really, I do love the concept). But that sounds like a Special to most of us. Fortunately, Cameron came well prepared well, experienced, safe and an excellent driver. Not so in the past. I keep repeating the story of the 1st Gen RX 7 with a Ford 302 that showed up some years ago with a muffler tube rollcage. You never know what somebody is going to try!
Boy, would I love to see the classes consolidated. I ask the same question you do. Why are there so many "kind of like the same" classes? Why doesn't Super Street Mod, Super Street Prep, E Street Prep, T1, etc run together in ITE? They all qualify!
Maybe we can take your ideas to the next level this time! I'll support you any way I can.

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Re: ITE/Classing of street legal "swapped" cars

Post by dspgti »

Rich Rock asked me to look at NASA rules for Performance Tuner (PT)and Super Touring (ST) rules to see if the 240Z complies. I have to admit that I spent a limited time on their rules so if I'm missing something, I welcome the input.

In PT, all kinds of upgrades are allowed assessing points. Once you go beyond the max adjustment, you are bumped to the ST classes. So Cameron would need to submit the points assessment for his car in it's current trim. My guess is that his car would fall in the Super Unlimited class. If not then at least the ST classes. As I read the rules, these classes are intended for purpose built race cars, Not Production built sedans. When I run with NASA in my H/P Rabbit, I am immediately put in ST because I'm a "non Production" sedan.

Have I confused you with Not and Non Production? My class is called Production but is not considered as being the way the car was produced or manufactured. Regardless of which race organization I run with and get classified, I am not eligible for ITE. Keep in mind, the class is intended for Improved Touring, manufactured base vehicles that are raced to showcase the performance capabilities of a specific manufacturer.

It is my own Humble opinion that the 240Z regardless of which class it falls in under NASA or any other race group that it does not fit the intent or spirit of ITE.

Other comments and opinions are requested
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Re: ITE/Classing of street legal "swapped" cars

Post by Rich Rock »

Mark, I must be missing something. Where does it say in our rules that a cross manufacturer engine swap is legal in ITE?
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Re: ITE/Classing of street legal "swapped" cars

Post by Mark Aubele »

Dave,

From speaking with Jeremy he intended ITE to be a catch all class for "doorslammers" (non-tube frame cars), as currently there are many cars out there that have no reasonable class to run. For instance, the way the ITE rules are stated in your earlier post, no one is currently legal to run in ITE. I just do not see a competitor showing up with a factory shop manual, and documentation to prove what racing series they currently run in. There are no set rules in place nationally for ITE, it's intention was to be what the region deemed it suitable for, and in my opinion it is the perfect fit for cars such as Cameron's.

That being said, I have come to the point after speaking with a few people, I will drop the ITE argument. Why not just loosen up SM/SSM? The fastest SP cars are pretty much in line with SM/SSM, seems to make sense to allow cars like Cameron's to run in SM, since the car as far as I know would be legal for SM making a zillion hp with a Skyline GTR engine or other Nissan powerplant. Seems silly to keep acting as if autocross has anything to do with what we do. I think it is time to make SMF/SM/SSM mean the car has DOT tires, an untouched firewall, a license plate, and proof of insurance. Seems a pretty simple way to keep tube frame cars out. Lack of carpet when we are highly encouraged to have full cages shouldn't kick us out of SM at this point.

Interesting point to somewhat support what I am saying; if someone shows up to an event with in a Mustang (or any other car) with an aftermarket K-member not prepared to a road racing class, as the rules are written there is no place for them to run. Just seems another valid argument to loosen up the Street Mod classes to better reflect what we are doing.

I know some are worried about a "slippery slope" with how fast these cars are getting, but you already have street legal cars going across the finish at Duryea at ~140mph, and datalogs and GPS show us at around 130 going into 6 (Dan R and Steve Lewis well over that) so I would say that we have already slid way down the proverbial slope.
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Re: ITE/Classing of street legal "swapped" cars

Post by Mark Aubele »

Rich Rock wrote:Mark, I must be missing something. Where does it say in our rules that a cross manufacturer engine swap is legal in ITE?
Rich, I was under the impression our rules were written to be a catch all for production cars that didn't have anywhere else to run. His car would've been legal for SPO. As the rules are written nothing running in the class is legal, and no car that shows up would be either unless they have all the documentation required, which I doubt it going to happen at a hillclimb.

I wasn't being very clear or making much sense in my first post, was just pointing out Kendrick's car isn't legal according to the rules either, and since the class can be whatever we want it to be (it's regional), I felt it made sense to have it be the class where cars prepped above SM can go when they are obviously not prepped to Special (street legal). I have since changed my mind and think we should just loosen up SM to better reflect what we do instead of have it based on what autocrossers do.

I was mostly starting the discussion to suggest that cars like his should have a better fit with all our classes than where an ex-Champ car or a tube frame race car runs.
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Re: ITE/Classing of street legal "swapped" cars

Post by jerdeitzel »

Just a fwiw, you are right that NASA goes from PT to ST. Once you hit ST it is s simple power to weight sheet for the rules. It has nothing to do with "real" racecars or whatever. His car is ST legal. So, according to those NASA rules he is ITE legal the way it's written.

Dave, your car is not ITE legal because it has other classes to run in that is not specials. Just like all those other car classes you mentioned. So, where does an EVO go with a non SM legal cage? Oh specials. No, ITE like I wrote!

How on earth car you guys expect to require other series rules when we cannot even understand our own? I could print out a bunch of weight/hp sheets to have on hand if an ITE car shows up. :) We also wrote the rally rules. Did anyone check those cars for compliance?

Let's also ask this question. He is Street unlimited legal in the southern SCCA hills. Wouldn't that actually be a legal series to reference for ITE rules?

? ITE has 3 rules, dot tires. Another group rules and the a recommended rule of asking the organizers ( so not required) No other rules

Kendricks car falls into the same ST classes too. So he is legal!
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Re: ITE/Classing of street legal "swapped" cars

Post by dspgti »

Yes , NO, maybe?
The intent of the rules, as I see it, was to allow a car from any organization that ran a "SERIES". Not just that it qualifies for this class or that class in some race race group or another. Everyone says, there was never a car that really qualified for ITE. I'm not sure. I think Bill Miller ran one of his Audi's that would qualify. Did Kendrick? I just learned that he had a turbo or maybe a super charger. Not sure if there is or was a BMW club series that allowed Forced induction. If not, he was not eligible for the class either.
If anyone ran the PHA Series in a Stock, Improved Touring, Some type of Street Prep/Mod class, they qualify. Once any race organization runs some kind of unlimited class for their series, not just one special event, that is based on a production type vehicles? Then they qualify. The "series" would have to say, "produced chassis by any manufacturer with any power train". The intent is Improved Touring which refers to limited modifications to a sedan or coupe produced my mass manufacturer. Yes Ferrari's qualifies, but not from the Pro series.
While the rules state that the car has to be entered with proof that it ran that series, PHA officials would accept a car prepared to those rules with the intent that the car could be entered in the future to allow drivers to prepare for the intended series. The supps state that any entrant needs to submit their intention in advance. Has anyone done that?
Sorry Jer, I disagree. ST in NASA is not a class for production vehicles. It is intended for pupose built race cars and all others that have been modified beyond acceptable limitations for a "street car".
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Re: ITE/Classing of street legal "swapped" cars

Post by dspgti »

Jeremy,
I missed a major point that you made. If the Southern SCCA Region runs a hillclimb or time trial "Series" with points and a championship that includes a Production based car with unlimited power train modifications, then the 240Z qualifies for ITE.

Again, just my own humble opinion

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Re: ITE/Classing of street legal "swapped" cars

Post by dspgti »

Mark and Jer,
The paper work requirements are just "boiler plate". If anyone wants to counter a ruling, then all the paper work needs to be in order. Otherwise, lets not sweat the details.
Why wouldn't he qualify for SPO? If an Ex Sprint Cup, Arca or any other NASCAR series car or truck qualifies, then I think Cameron would?
The last thing on earth I would want to suggest is a new class but the idea of Street Unlimited sounds cool. After all, the most recent class created was Street Mod Front wheel drive. Turns out to be the biggest class in decades at Duryea. I'm just not sure there would be a lot of entries. But I could be wrong. I have been a few times in the past. lol.

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Re: ITE/Classing of street legal "swapped" cars

Post by Heavy85 »

Start by saying I had no problem being bounced to Specials so no hard feelings at all and didnt take away from the awesome weekend. My thought was NASA TTU (time trial unlimited) which is hp/wt class would eek me into ITE. I do run Street Unlimited in the South which is quite relevant to what people are doing today and a popular class. DOT tires, windshield, wipers, lights, and dash are most of the rules.

http://www.sedivracing.org/TT/SEDIV_TT_ClassRules12.pdf

I will be back to Pa in the future so would be good to know what class to run.

I've run with several different groups and havent even heard of several of the PHA classes - seems there are more classes than really needs to be.

Cameron
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Re: ITE/Classing of street legal "swapped" cars

Post by jerdeitzel »

Dave, ST is positively a series with national champions for production based cars! SU is the only NASA class that is not. NARRA has a series of production based cars. Same rules pretty much. I understand you may not like the rules but they way they are written seems to say nothing about NASA ST classes being illegal.

Rich, of course there is no rule stating engine swaps are allowed. The rules tell you to read the other race groups rules for that. Not SCCA rules. Then, add in the other details we wrote in.

Fwiw, Bill car is actually illegal in ITE now because you wrote no world challenge cars allowed. ;) Not sure why you would do that if your intent was for a car to have run a "series"?
Last edited by jerdeitzel on Sun Aug 23, 2015 2:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: ITE/Classing of street legal "swapped" cars

Post by jerdeitzel »

Here is the NASA ST or even TT for that matter car classification form. As you can see, it pushes for production vehicle's by awarding percentage points. It deducts for vehicles are non production (yes those are allowed too but you don't see many competing at the top level because they take too big of a hit in the deductions.). https://nasa-assets.s3.amazonaws.com/do ... 1-1-15.pdf

This then meets all your requirements that you listed above for conforming to ITE? A National series from a well respected group with a champion and no other place to run. Well, this plus the having to have adhere to the 3 rules we have for ITE. Dot tires (which ST does allow non Dot tires but again takes a hit) This form above and the ITE legal cage.

Please tell me how this is wrong?
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Re: ITE/Classing of street legal "swapped" cars

Post by dspgti »

So what are we arguing about here. If we determined that Cameron can run in 3 different classes, Specials, SPO, STO, why does it have to include ITE? The way we wrote the brief rules was to keep it simple and yet we have complicated the hell out of it.
If you ask the officials who wrote the GCR rules the "INTENT" of Improved Touring is to be a platform to race cars that came off the assembly line with various limits of modifications. We messed up when we used the term allow Marque Clubs yet included NASA as a Marque Club. The marque club should mean, Porsche, BMW, Corvette etc. Then say include other classes from other sanctioning bodies such as American Iron, 944 Cup, E30 Cup etc. And say "while maintaining the philosophy and integrity of a specific manufacturer Model" and of course "we don't guarantee competitiveness!"
In my opinion, NASA's philosophy of Super Touring is to allow near unlimited modifications to any car that has 4 covered wheels. Doesn't matter that a bone stock street car with a cam change can run there on street tires. So can a Sprint Cup car with slicks. It's not apples for apples.
By way, I forgot the Bill Millers car was a World Challenge car, but I think he ran before we did the new ITE rules. If Bill ever shows up with his new Audi's, everyone will see why we used the logic of excluding Pro series since they can run in ST. They are totally AWESOME.

Shall we reconvene the committee? I am always up for challenge. I'd like to address some ideas that were thrown around here.

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Re: ITE/Classing of street legal "swapped" cars

Post by jerdeitzel »

Dave, I don't think he was actually legal for anything but specials because of the aero!

I have no desire to get back into this BS. I personally thought we had come to an agreement when we wrote the rules. You allow the NASA TT (same rules as above) cars to be able to run in ITE and I would let it require a full cage. Simple as that! This is exactly was I was going for when I took on the job. We had plenty of discussions with everyone at that time and there is no way in hell that my "idea" for the class was not always transparent. I was trying to make a class my car could fit in. In fact, I ran ITE a few times after writing the rules. My car obviously doesn't fit into your idea.

Let's get back to the bottom line. SCCA classes are boring! Look at the cars that run pikes peak and the EU hillclimbs. Almost all have aero and are built just for hills. Why not allow classes like ITE for slower cars to get aero mods. (Which can be very reasonable cost wise if you DIY). Being stuck into the strict classing rules is just crushing creativity of the group. You would get folks building stuff that spectators would love! Obviously, just my opinion.

Is Kendricks car legal from the way the rules are written at the moment? It's a stretch to say it is not, IMO.
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Re: ITE/Classing of street legal "swapped" cars

Post by dspgti »

Before I comment any further, could someone direct me to the site for the Southeast Division or Region that has the rules posted for Street Unlimited.

And Jeremy, what class rules was your car prepared to and why couldn't you qualify for ITE?

dy
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Re: ITE/Classing of street legal "swapped" cars

Post by Heavy85 »

dspgti wrote:Before I comment any further, could someone direct me to the site for the Southeast Division or Region that has the rules posted for Street Unlimited ...
See link I posted above. And what is STO?

Cameron
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Re: ITE/Classing of street legal "swapped" cars

Post by Mark Aubele »

Heavy85 wrote:
dspgti wrote:Before I comment any further, could someone direct me to the site for the Southeast Division or Region that has the rules posted for Street Unlimited ...
See link I posted above. And what is STO?

Cameron
Super Touring Over. Not sure of rules, IMO one of the classes that could be eliminated pretty easily, someone ran there at Giants but can't remember someone running there in years.
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Re: ITE/Classing of street legal "swapped" cars

Post by jerdeitzel »

I thought STO was no longer a class?

Be prepared to have a heart attack reading the SU rules. It's suggested to have safety equipment equal to your times. But, SM minimum is all that is required. (Ducking, roll bar only)
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Re: ITE/Classing of street legal "swapped" cars

Post by m1bes »

Last year when I did the Dragon they wanted to put my pickup in SPO and not in special and I asked them how that can be and they read off some rules and said I fit in there but I went in to their special and called it close enough ......... I really do not care what class I am in ... I just want to be able to run and have some fun......

Just my 2 cents Butch King 178
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