SCCA Time Trial Annocement

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SCCA Time Trial Annocement

Postby Dave Cutchins » Fri Jan 26, 2018 8:04 pm

What is your opinion on the new SCCA Time Trial Program?

https://www.scca.com/articles/2008957-s ... nals-event

GRM Interview with Haywood Wagner.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=40kodnMzGg0
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Re: SCCA Time Trial Annocement

Postby Rich Rock » Sat Jan 27, 2018 11:56 am

Too many things not known/confirmed yet, too early to judge.
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Re: SCCA Time Trial Annocement

Postby Rich Rock » Tue Feb 20, 2018 5:36 pm

Just got word from SCCA that tonight, Tuesday Feb 20 at 9pm, SCCA's Heyward Wagner will be live on Grassroots Motorsports' Facebook and You Tube pages to talk more about the new program.

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Re: SCCA Time Trial Annocement

Postby svann » Wed Feb 21, 2018 12:02 am

I watched the Grassroots Motorsports Live web cast. As I had heard, sports racer and open wheel drivers are not included in the present class structure for the SCCA TT National Championship. The reason Heyward gave was not clear to me. I think there is still time to correct this if all of us "deployables" contact SCCA soon.
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Re: SCCA Time Trial Annocement

Postby Dave Cutchins » Thu Feb 22, 2018 5:33 pm

Stan, I think that SCCA prohibits mixing open wheel/sports racers with tin tops. This whole proposal is aimed a Solo drivers.
Look at Solo Nationals total car count and compare to the number of open wheel/sports racers. We just don't make up a significant number as far as being "paying" customers. They don't need us.
Even at most regional road racing events they put all of us in "Wings and Things" where the performance envelope and closing rates are vastly different and bordering on dangerous.
I talked to someone in the DC Region a few years back about doing one of their TT events at Shenandoah and was told "bring a dozen or so of your buddies and we might make a run group for you".

The national office could certainly learn a few things from the PHA!
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Re: SCCA Time Trial Annocement

Postby Rich Rock » Fri Feb 23, 2018 6:13 pm

It's easy enough to submit comments and suggestions to the SCCA about this. There's a link to the comments form on the SCCA homepage. I encourage anyone who would like to see changes made to any aspect of the proposed format, classes, and rules to take advantage of this opportunity before their plans are finalized.

Dave, I'm curious. What do you think National could learn from PHA? I'm not fishing for compliments, but I'm curious if you (or anyone else) thinks that having a large number of classes and a wide variety of cars is a very good thing?

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Re: SCCA Time Trial Annocement

Postby Dave Cutchins » Sat Feb 24, 2018 11:42 am

Rich Rock wrote:It's easy enough to submit comments and suggestions to the SCCA about this. There's a link to the comments form on the SCCA homepage. I encourage anyone who would like to see changes made to any aspect of the proposed format, classes, and rules to take advantage of this opportunity before their plans are finalized.

Dave, I'm curious. What do you think National could learn from PHA? I'm not fishing for compliments, but I'm curious if you (or anyone else) thinks that having a large number of classes and a wide variety of cars is a very good thing?

Rich


Hi Rich,
From the outside looking in, the PHA is organized and responsive to it's membership. PHA events are well run and affordable (as far as motorsports are concerned). PHA tries to be inclusive of nearly everyone that presents a vehicle that will pass the technical and safety inspection. PHA has taken the existing structure and made it work for everyone, whereas National wants to scrap what is in place and create something new.

The real issue is the bottom line cost to the participants. Changing the structure will not reduce track rentals, insurance, sanction fees, travel, lodging, etc., to individual regions and their members. Will changing the structure result in more participation and make regional TT programs financially feasible? We shall see.

I'm among those who think there are way to many classes, but SCCA has allowed class creep over the years in both Solo and Road Racing. There is no reason to think that will not happen as participants begin to lobby for changes in the future. I would support a bumping order for under prescribed classes.

I do agree a wide variety of cars is a good thing, but just because you are different does not necessarily mean you should have a separate class. The new TT program reduces total classes to 17, but orphans open wheel and sports racers. Including one additional level with a few classes probably would not make an event unmanageable.

When you really think about it, we all are running against the hills/track and the clock. Personally, I'm more interested in overall than class position, even though I know there are many who are quicker than I am. I don't mind the change, but I do hope PHA will have supplemental classes for us orphans to have a place to play.
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Re: SCCA Time Trial Annocement

Postby Rich Rock » Sat Feb 24, 2018 5:49 pm

Keep in mind, "this" is all about a National Time Trial Championship Event. The format and rules and limited classes are for that event only. An event that won't even happen until after our 2018 season is over! They've been so busy putting "this" together, they haven't had time to deal with publishing the 2018 SCCA Time Trials Rules, (the ones we use, as amended by our supps)

It's my understanding (and I've had several exchanges with one of the people in charge of this) is that there is no plan to force regions to adopt the Championship Event format and rules. We remain free to do what works best for us, as it should be.

So, we'll keep doing what we've been doing, which includes welcoming "orphans" :-)

Here's a heads up, though, about the possibility of us changing the format for Shenandoah. Instead of running laps we're thinking about running almost one full lap, autocross style. Sometimes referred to as a Trackcross or Horizontal Hillclimb. Run as many as possible each day. There was lots of enthusiasm for the idea at the November PHA meeting. We'll talk about it at Jefferson where most of the likely entrants will be in one place.
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Re: SCCA Time Trial Annocement

Postby gdh57 » Sun Feb 25, 2018 10:38 pm

I encourage everyone to review the proposed rules for the SCCA National Time Trials event. There is a section called "Safety Rules", and an extensive section on safety rules for hillclimbs (which some of the proposed classes need to follow).

http://www.sccahq.com/time-trials-rules/

Some of the changes -- Required head and neck restraint, and required double brake and tail lights. Probably more differences. I encourage everyone to review the new rules, and submit feedback via the feedback form.

I personally like the classing rules, but realize that all non-door slammers are excluded.

This rule set may have been generated for the new National Event, but it is now the new National Time Trial rule set. PHA can add to, but not reduce requirements. We definitely need to make our voices heard if we disagree with the changes.

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Re: SCCA Time Trial Annocement

Postby Rich Rock » Mon Feb 26, 2018 12:10 pm

Again, these rules don't apply to us as they are NOT the "SCCA 2018 Time Trials Rules"

If you read the safety rules for the event you'll see that Hans device is required in the highest prep level (4), but not for cars in the lower prep levels (1-3)
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Re: SCCA Time Trial Annocement

Postby jerdeitzel » Mon Feb 26, 2018 1:05 pm

I understand that these new rules are for the "national event only". Can you answer why they would be rules and not supps?

It seems everything they are doing are things you are suppose to put in supps. Or, are they just supplemental rules to the TTR rules? It may clear up some confusion if they just said that.
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Re: SCCA Time Trial Annocement

Postby Rich Rock » Mon Feb 26, 2018 6:46 pm

There's a lot of stuff that hasn't been finalized. That's the point of the review period, collecting input.


For now, I think they're just soliciting input and trying to create a buzz. They may be far from the final version.
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Re: SCCA Time Trial Annocement

Postby Rich Rock » Thu Mar 08, 2018 5:40 pm

Today, SCCA published the 2018 Time Trial and Hillclimb Rules (finally). Much the same as the past few years, they just break things down a little differently this year. You can read them by going to scca.com, clicking on "Programs", then clicking on "Time Trials", and finally, clicking on "Hillclimb Rules".

Keep in mind that our events are run according to our supps, which are a bit more stringent on some safety items, but everyone needs to know that there will be no major changes for us this year (just like I wrote here a couple weeks ago).

You might be happy to hear that I've already received sanctions for Jefferson and Pagoda!

See you at the PHA meeting this Saturday.
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Re: SCCA Time Trial Annocement

Postby Mark Aubele » Thu Mar 08, 2018 8:44 pm

Rich Rock wrote:....I'm curious if you (or anyone else) thinks that having a large number of classes and a wide variety of cars is a very good thing?

Rich


I'm probably in the minority, but no. I wish we could shrink it to 20 or less. It is frankly ridiculous to have 46 (?) classes for 80-120 entrants. The way we have autocross classing mixed with road race classing mixed with hilllclimb classing only created a monster. SCCA's way of doing it with this new proposal is a massive step in the right direction. We can add a few classes for the open wheel cars, but I would love if we could have the same classing structure for production based cars they are having for their national TT event eventually. Would simplify things greatly, and end the situation we have now where some cars can run in several different classes.
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Re: SCCA Time Trial Annocement

Postby Rich Rock » Sat Mar 17, 2018 8:40 am

They published the revised rules for the National event a few days ago, but they're still looking for feedback and plan to have things finalized in about a month

Looks like they plan to keep track of (publish) times/records for 30-some autocross classes and about 20 road race classes, but they still claim to have less than 20 classes!
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Re: SCCA Time Trial Annocement

Postby Rich Rock » Fri May 04, 2018 4:47 pm

I got an email from National yesterday regarding rumors going around concerning the new program and what it might mean to us. He was reaching out to try and set the record straight. So I called the guy back and we talked for about an hour. The bottom line is that there will be, as I've said in the past, NO CHANGES for us.

He told me something I never really thought about...Our two Track Trials at Summit Point, which draw between 70 and 80 entries are the biggest (in terms of number of drivers) time trial events, not only in the SCCA but in the country! None of the other organizations that run time trials, including NASA have bigger Time Trial participation.

He said SCCA certainly wasn't going to try and tell us how we should be doing things.

See you at Jefferson:-)

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Re: SCCA Time Trial Annocement

Postby tedebayer » Sat May 05, 2018 6:29 am

Rich this is GREAT news. Unfortunately is is not the tone of discussions and meetings and things we are being told in the Southeast.

There have been some rather aggressive emails, meetings and conversations where we have been told things that do match your discussion. We are seeing the Director of Experiential Programs spending large amounts of money on TNIA and National Time Trial Program while ignoring any support to any of our existing Time Trial programs in marketing, funding or advertising. There is little to no coverage of Time Trial events at division or Regional level in Sportscar Magazine and hasn't been for a long time. We are being told the current TIME TRIAL model is not working while our competitors are enjoying good programs with solid support. SCCA has not invested in Time Trial in many years... and our competitors have and are benefiting from that effort. The National Time Trial event at CMP was placed one week off of the Dragon Hillclimb and this has had a negative impact on the Dragon Hillclimb entries which is 60 miles away in CCR region territory. (Long standing rule in SEDIV... we don't place points paying events on top of other points paying events as it hurts both. That was spun as an attack on the new program and that is NOT true. The only reason it was voted to NOT be a SEDIV Time Trial points event was it's proximity in distance and date (one week) to a current Division series point paying Time Trial event.)

There is currently no representation from divisions as the National Time Trial Committee and National Time Trial Safety Committees were disbanded and replaced by those chosen by Heyward to serve. There is currently no support for existing Time Trial programs and we are being told "the mold does not work" and Time Trial programs are poorly run while pouring member money into another program and losing members to other organizations with successful Time trial programs that... also hold National Time Trial events. There is a strong push to "fun with cars on track" while downplaying competition element which is important to those who truly understand and enjoy Time Trial . The definition of us in PHA, and in the Southeast and in all of our competitor organizations is truly about competition.... but we are told don't worry about the rules and competition just come have fun on track. The new Time Trial board in control of SCCA Time Trial stated they got together and created a new definition of Time Trial. It is about the quest for speed and challenging yourself and getting all you can out of your car. fun on track with cars. That is not our definition for SCCA Time Trial. We have fun on track with cars while we compete! It would be good if the current National Time Trial board which holds Time Trial certification/ licenses in many areas of TT had experience in running Time Trials or hillclimbs but we cannot find where any of them have experience running a Time Trial or hillclimb in SCCA or other organizations. That would allow them a better understanding of what we do and how it does work in SCCA and other organizations.

I asked for the Board to make a statement on future direction and say what the plans are because the picture is not clear. Based on support from the head of SCCA Time Trial, comments being made and money being spent... while no support, money, advertising or marketing is being done to support Divisional Time Trial programs, there is room to question the future direction of SCCA... and THAT is why I asked for a clear statement from the board. When we have that answer... then we know. Based on current support, money being spent and attitudes being expressed by the head of Time Trial in SCCA...and the history of Time Trial being bounced along from Solo to Road Racing to Experiential Program... and with little to no current involvement or effort to support, market or help promote Time Trial events for regions and divisions that hold Time Trials.... there is reason to ask questions and get clarity from the National Board. I am pleased to hear that you had a positive conversation... in the Southeast and some in other divisions of SCCA, many still have concerns. Based on response on social media, emails and forums posts, there are a LOT of SCCA members that feel the same as I do ... this is NOT clear and there IS cause for concern. A statement from the board will clear the air and I am hopeful the board will make solid steps to promote and support the Time Trial programs we have had with SOME level of support like what is being given to the new Time Trial program and TNIA. We can all win that way and grow SCCA. Making disparaging remarks about existing Time Trial efforts and programs as well as other organization's programs, even though apologies have been made, was way out of line and there is no reason BOTH programs can't receive attention, support in marketing, funding and advertising to help regions and divisions. It is member money... and there is room for all of us.

We need new members and new blood and new young people... totally support that... but we need to serve our existing members and support and help regions grow their events as well. Regions are THE contact point for members and SCCA... and when regions and regional events succeed, that is good for SCCA. Looking forward to a board statement addressing the concerns many of us have. There are many rumors out there... and a statement from the board can make clear the future direction. Thanks!
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Re: SCCA Time Trial Annocement

Postby svann » Sat May 05, 2018 8:25 am

Thanks for posting Ted. As a old, open wheel, formula ford enthusiast, I still feel uncomfortable. Having just invested thousands on the rebuild, I hope I have a place to play for a few more years, besides vintage racing. I'm not really interested in road racing. Time trials/hillclimbs are what I enjoy.
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