Proposed change for 2012 year end points.

[Mwilson]

Would like to get some feedback on something I have been thinking about for awhile. As you are all aware our point structure is 10 pts. for first place in class, 9 pts. for second and so on. At the end of the year we add up the points and if you have competed in one more than half of the events the highest number wins the class. I was just thinking that we have no points built in for breaking a class record. As many of you know it is quite an accomplishment to break a class record in most cases. In the past the driver simply gets his name on the list where the records are kept. I was wondering if we could incorporate them into the total points for year end totals. Perhaps 2 additional points for each record broken. If you broke the record 4 times in one weekend which is probably unlikely you would only get 2 additional points towards your year end total. If you broke 3 records for the year you would get 6 additional points added to your total. I truly feel this would make for some interesting racing and would recognize and reward the drivers for a job well done.
I have also talked to Kurt about this and he is considering having certificates of accomplishments printed up on behalf of the TIME BANDITS, our "OLD" team to award to the drivers who do set a class record.
I am not looking to change the complete Points system but simply to give the drivers an additional incentive by adding the 2 additional points for a NEW CLASS RECORD.
I am looking for some feedback from you and if you can see any reason to not adopt this proposal please feel free to comment. This is just a proposal/suggestion and of course would need to be voted on I am sure.

[Dogpatch]

Breaking a Class Record is a real achievement that is possible for everyone in every class to accomplish. I don't think we adequately acknowledge the feat when a competitor does break the existing Class Record. I have been thinking about how we could make the acknowledgement a little sweeter. I am thinking about sponsoring some kind of award for doing so. Morg's idea of adding 2 points (for each new Class Record set) towards your year end class points total fits right in with acknowledging the competitor. I also believe that it might generate a little more friendly competition on the hills. I also like the idea because it doesn't really change the points system either... just adds to it. Good idea Morg. Anyone else have any thoughts about this.

Kurt

[Rich Sweigart]

Having been pts keeper, all of this extra stuff can be a real pita. Plus, i can see a person win more events than another but, lose the championship do to a record. Currently, it takes 2 events to recover from a 2nd place, if your even with another driver. Example, driver 1 has a 10,9,9 for 28 and driver 2 is 9,10,10 for 29; it took 2 events for driver 2 to take the pts lead. If driver 1, sets a record then he would still be ahead by a 1 pt after 3 events, we only have 8-10 events. My view of records is that it is a benchmark for drivers to shoot for with many variables from car prep to weather, it is a neat part of the sport but, should it determine class champions?

[Mwilson]

It really isn't a "PITA." You also say "all this extra stuff." It really is quite simple. You simply add 2 to the 10 which equals 12. If you see a 12 in the results for first place you know that person set a record. As for your theory lets take it a step further. If driver 1 wins 6 events which gives him a total of 60 points. And driver 2 takes 6 second places and one third place giving him a total of 62 points. Driver 1 broke one record giving him 2 additional points, thus giving them both 62 total points. With more wins than driver 2, driver 1 would then win the championship and rightfully so. So to answer your question "should a record determine a class championship?' my answer would be a definite yes.

I ask you Rich, in your scenario, If driver 1 pushed his driving ability and his car to the limits to break a record, isn't this what true champions due? Driver 2 has the same opportunity as driver 1 if he chooses to do so. At the end of the season the individual that has that extra desire and fortitude, in my opinion should be the one that should win the class championship.

“If you’re going to be a champion, you must be willing to pay a greater price than your opponent.” Bud Wilkinson, University of Oklahoma Football Coach

[Dogpatch]

I liken the extra 2 points to other race series that give points for Pole, most laps led, fastest lap time, etc. It just makes the game more interesting. Most drivers would like to break their class record but few are able to develop the necessary driver skill and car preparation needed to do so... so I too think it could be an important part of the points system.

Kurt

[Nelson]

I just added 2 points for each record that was broken. Although for this past year it did not change the results, it could have an impact in the future.
It will not take any more time to factor in the points for breaking a record.

[Matt Rowe]

Interesting thought Morg and I certainly like the idea of recognizing when competitors break a class record. Some of you may remember that when we did Rose Valley we handed out certificates to those individuals and awarded a special trophy to whomever broke a record by the largest margin. I am a little torn on awarding extra points because it may end up having to large of an effect on the championship. So I ran a couple scenarios.

Scenario A
8 events, 2 points for each record
Driver A wins 6 but breaks no records
Driver B wins 2 and breaks 2 records
The points are tied and Driver A would win based on the number of wins as a tie breaker.

Scenario B
8 events, 1 point for each record
Driver A - 5 Wins, no records
Driver B - 3 Wins, 3 records
Driver B takes the championship by 1 point.

There are lots of other scenarios that you can run, after looking at some different examples I think 1 point for each record would add a little emphasis without overly skewing the points after only a couple of records. We have a few months until the next PHA meeting where this would need to be discussed and voted on but I think you may be onto something here.

[Mwilson]

Matt, thanks for your valued input. I would have no problem with one point for breaking a record. My thoughts were that there is only one point difference between first and second. Breaking a record is much harder than winning a class and I felt that it would warrant 2 points instead of one. However, I do understand and respect your thoughts and am willing to compromise on my idea and go with the 1 point. Both Kurt and I feel it adds just a little extra incentive for all drivers and in a small way recognizes their accomplishments. I have spoken to Nelson and he says it won't be a problem at all on his end.

[Dogpatch]

You can run all the scenarios you want but they really are not real life. Nelson posted stats showing the following:
Total # of drivers 184 with the following participation

8 events = 17
7 events = 15
6 events = 14
5 events = 11
4 events = 9
3 events = 27
2 events = 31
1 event = 60

only a few of the 46 classes have shown any real competition between drivers. I don't have to look any farther than my own class - DSR, with 4 competitors. I ran 8 events, 1 ran 2 events and 2 ran 1 event. . I don't think there is going to be a major problem with 2 points upsetting the standings any time soon. It certainly wouldn't have effected any this year. However I can live with 1 point.
Kurt

[mrevilracing]

As tire technology changes and more powerful cars come to compete, I don't think additional points for records should be given. I won the trophy at Rose Valley for beating a record by the largest margin. Looking back on it, I came with the right car at the right time with a decent driver. I did beat the record but it wasn't a true comparison between cars.

While some classes may be stuck with only being able to modify to a certain point, tires & driver will be the next upgrade. However, those of us in street classes can be beaten by a host of newer cars and wider tires.

Maybe record breaking should be in another class all together. A calculation of power to weight with an adjustment due to tire size and type of drive(RWD, FWD, AWD). Of course, to participate, a dyno sheet will need to be provided or, we could have a portable dyno at each event to verify the readings. Once you break a record, you go right to the dyno. IF your car breaks at the end of the run, isn't running right on the dyno or you crash at the end of the run, the record is forfitted.

Regarding the '11 season:
IF Jack Danko Jr would have broken another record, he would have had the championship in Club Ford. He had broken 1 record and the end of year points differential was only 3. http://pahillclimb.net/wp-content/uploa ... -Class.pdf

[Mwilson]

While some classes may be stuck with only being able to modify to a certain point, tires & driver will be the next upgrade. However, those of us in street classes can be beaten by a host of newer cars and wider tires.

All I need to do is look at Dan Reed's performance this year. He certainly has one of the older cars in his class. He doesn't run any special tires, but yet he won his class championship and finished second overall. The reason is not his equipment, it is because he is one hell of a driver. He drives hard and knows his lines and pushes his car to the limits.

Maybe record breaking should be in another class all together. A calculation of power to weight with an adjustment due to tire size and type of drive(RWD, FWD, AWD). Of course, to participate, a dyno sheet will need to be provided or, we could have a portable dyno at each event to verify the readings. Once you break a record, you go right to the dyno. IF your car breaks at the end of the run, isn't running right on the dyno or you crash at the end of the run, the record is forfitted.

My class is no different than your class. I compete with cars that have far more horsepower than I do. Many are RWD,FWD,and AWD. Most of the cars I compete against were newer than my 64 Beach Formula Vee or my 82 Bandit. Some are supercharged while others are turbo charged but they are all legal in my class. Dyno sheets, Raw horsepower, Power to weight, Tire size, and so on are important to many but the bottom line is I have never had either of my cars on a dyno and have been moderately successful. I do agree with you that some types of cars do have a big advantage in certain conditions such as AWD on wet roads, that's just the way it is. I could choose to put rain tires on to compete in the rain but have decided not to. My decision! It all comes down to what you as a driver want to do. How aggressive you want to drive, and how much you want to spend. Records are designed for classes, not whether you have a RWD, FWD, or AWD car. Not how much horsepower you have or power to weight or tire size. If a car is legal for a specific class and breaks a record I feel he deserves to be rewarded with an extra point.

Regarding the '11 season:
IF Jack Danko Jr would have broken another record, he would have had the championship in Club Ford. He had broken 1 record and the end of year points differential was only 3. http://pahillclimb.net/wp-content/uploa ... -Class.pdf

If you saw Matt's post we are thinking of one point instead of two. First, there was an error in Mason's points for Polish Mtn. He only received 8 points for second place instead of 9. It did not effect the outcome. Even if Jack Jr. would have broken another record he would have still lost the championship.
In conclusion on any given day, in any class, anyone has a chance to set a class record. You said at Rose Valley," Looking back on it, I came with the right car at the right time with a decent driver. I did beat the record but it wasn't a true comparison between cars." If the car you beat was in your class and you beat the record you deserved to be in the record book.

[jerdeitzel]

I dont like the whole points system. Take the club Ford for instance (AND NO DISRESPECT TO ANYONE), the person who won the championship basically just went to more events. This is the case is quite a few classes. If you want 5 events to be the minimum number to count, then just take 5 event scores and let the person who did 8 drop whichever ones they want. Its great to award people for showing up but on the competetive side of things, if you can't make all the event and your are running against someone who does, then your pretty much SOL no matter how much you crush them in the 5 events that you were at.

I like the idea of some change.

[Mwilson]

Jeremy, thanks for your input. One of the reasons I thought about awarding points/point for records broken was a way to help that driver that might excel but was not able to make all the events. On the other hand if two drivers were running back and forth between first and second for all the events, it would give them the incentive to push their car and their driving a bit more which could make for some exciting racing. I am just trying to spice things up a bit! I personally think that breaking any record in any class is quite an accomplishment especially with some of the outstanding drivers we have had both past and present. I truly believe that breaking a record warrants not only a place in the record books but a certificate/award and points/point towards a year end championship. I know Kurt has some great ideas in that space between his ears for some type of award and I will indeed help him fund his plans.

[jerdeitzel]

I think your idea is on track. It does help someone to lets say give them the 2 points for a record. If a person did 5 events and beat 5 records he would then get a 1 event freebie. Still, the person that went to 8 events wins with 7 scores vs the 5 events plus 10 points for records. So, i think that 2 points is the minimum that makes it worth while and make any real difference.

[Matt Rowe]

From a historical perspective the points championship (and really points championships in any series) exists to help encourage participation in as many events as possible. Keep in mind there was a time when events struggled to break even. This years banquet was a great reminder that it was less than 10 years ago that we almost lost Weatherly due in large part to a lack of entrants. The points championship is still a significant reason that we see people go out of their way to get to as many events as possible.

However, Jeremy makes a good point that at 2 points breaking 5 records offsets missing 2 events (1 event is covered by the drops). As an example someone could sit out both Jefferson events and take every record for the 5 events (only win the sixth) and easily win the championship. Of course, at only 1 point per record the outcome would be much closer, a tie in points with the most wins giving the season to the guy breaking all of the records. The tipping point looks like 3 records at 2 points each and that might be a good compromise.

The reason I look at different scenarios (numbers of events, number of points for a record) is to consider how I would feel as a competitor if the championship was decided by the difference in points due to breaking 1, 2, 3... records. While I don't expect everyone will agree on that threshold I would encourage everyone to consider the change from that perspective. Would you feel okay being beaten (or beating someone) because of the points gained based on breaking a X number of records?

[Rich Rock]

As many of you know it is quite an accomplishment to break a class record in most cases. In the past the driver simply gets his name on the list where the records are kept.

The driver gets (and has been getting) more than just their name on a list for setting a new class record. At the awards presentation on Sunday their accomplishment is announced when they receive their event plate. It says right on the plate: 1st Place CLASS RECORD. Nelson usually posts the list of Class Record holders at each event and the list of record holders appears in the event programs for the public to see. For the past few years at Duryea, CJ's Tire awards gift cards to everyone who sets a new class record.

I don't have anything against a certificate or some such thing, but I just want to make sure everyone knows what we've already been doing.

More later........

Rich Rock, PHA VP

[FV95]

I concur with Matt R. If there was a three event drop, based on only 5 counting, the first I would drop would be Polish and the second would be Fall Jefferson. If others think that way, we could lose those courses in a blink. I like the one drop rule, and miss the team championships that had no drops; because those rules promote more participation. It is basic economics, we need good participation at all events for them to survive, for the PHA series to survive.

[jerdeitzel]

It makes sense that the class championship is about promoting attendance.

John, I can look at it the other way. So, you will not attend those two event if you had a choice. Well, i might attend 2 more events if it meant i had a chance at the class championship. I think you need to look at where the most attendance falls, and you will see its on the lower half of the spectrum. So how do you get those folks to come to more events? Seems like basic economics to me in that scenerio.


FWIW, I don't think we actually need to add anymore drops. But, i do think that we should try and make it more competetive in the classes. I don't see anything wrong with someone taking a class championship if they only entered 5 or 6 events over someone who went to 8 events. If you can do it in 5 then good for you! IT might take some 8 to win one also. . I kno Rich has proposed changing the number of points awarded to 10 for first and 8 for second. (and nobody wanted to hear it basically).

PS. Should we talk about the whole open passing in level 3? and ducking!

[jerdeitzel]

And just since i'm thinking about this for a moment i have a question.

(This is talking about a class with 2 people that make enough events to be eligible, And using the 10 points for first 8 points for second rule that we should implement)

If driver A comes to 6 events and wins them all, he has 60 points.

If driver B comes to all 8 events, wins the 2 that driver A is not at and takes 2nd in the 6 other events, they have 60 points.

To me this seems like they both win and this is actually pretty fair. To have driver B win the championship just seems wrong to me.

Either way, this is not what this thread is about. Its just my opinion and i'm happy to follow whatever rules everyone see's fit.

[FV95]

Back to the actual subject: I am not opposed to an extra point for a record. Might be a great idea.
However, JD, you make a great point: Those not attending all or most of the events are not necessarily chasing an annual championship...so how do we promote more attendance? MIke Ancas did a great job out west: The Pittsburgh/Wanker crew make up a substantial part of our entries. We must all recruit new drivers to keep our sport alive. And, provide motivation for that hot shoe who wins the first 5 events in class and says, "why bother with the rest?" I was NOT picking on Polish & Jefferson.....they just happen to be near the end of the season when championships may already be decided and budgets are getting slim.
Maybe it is time to start a new thread on getting TEAM RACING back into the picture. Maybe a team championiship for production based cars and another for purpose built race cars? We can all talk a bit at the Feb meeting.