Proposed change for 2012 year end points.

Talk about Hill Climb events here and watch this site for any last minute changes to the schedule.

Moderators: Rich Rock, Mazdahead, Matt Rowe

Cass Racing
Novice
Posts: 6
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2011 8:04 pm
PHA Permanent Number: 71

Re: Proposed change for 2012 year end points.

Post by Cass Racing »

I will be upfront here and say I am still undecided about where I stand on this issue, but there are two things that make me feel a little bit uneasy about this idea. First, and I apologize to John if I get his speech wrong, but as a novice Mr. Pitman use to always say to us "we have a thing here called class records, and class records are for people who can set their car on fire, watch it burn to the ground, and walk away". Thus, if we concede that it is possible for someone to win a championship on a class record, then that means that the person who can afford to buy a trailer and a tow vehicle and bring their car to the event on it has an advantage over someone who cant. Should a person lose a championship because they happen to drive to the event in their door-slammer?

My second issue is a little bit harder to explain. Now, it is true that someone can win the championship by showing up more times to events. However, as I understand it, a class championship is a reward for you performing better then another driver in your class for that season (I fully concede that some classes have only one driver of course, but thats for participation which is THE most important thing). But, when you give points for hill records, it means you could win the championship by beating yourself, or someone who isnt even racing in your class, from last year. Does that not inherently undermine the class championship?

Like I said, I am undecided but these are my two concerns.
FV95
Hall of Fame Member
Posts: 189
Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2008 11:17 am
PHA Permanent Number: 95
Current Racecar: Vector FV, BMW R100R, 914-2.0
Location: Carlisle
Contact:

Re: Proposed change for 2012 year end points.

Post by FV95 »

For those of you who have not heard my Saturday AM discussion with novices, I do mention records. I also tell them to ignore records if: 1. they love their car; 2. they cannot afford to watch it burn in a crumpled heap; or 3. need the car to get to work. I follow with "race against yourself, try to go a little quicker with each run, and ignore the results. Concentrate on learning to handle the car and course. Then after some experience, measured in years, records may be your goal. And I often use a quote I attribute to Graham Hill (but I could be wrong about the source): "Win at the slowest possible speed."
A question I will now add to my discussion with novices: If you have an ample lead, first place in hand, does it make sense to push harder for the record and any extra points? The answer of course depends on whether one is chasing an annual championship or simply wants to be in the record book. Some records were set, allegedly, by illegal cars when there was no one in the class to protest. What sense does it make to take huge risks chasing them? Racing should be exciting, competitive, fun, and reasonable safe; not an egomaniacal dash to the top of the hill.
mckee

Re: Proposed change for 2012 year end points.

Post by mckee »

John Pitman makes a lot of sense. I cannot remember ever setting out to break a class record -- it just happened as I learned my car and the courses better, chasing the usual suspects.

I remember when I first came to PHA some 10 years ago. The novice mentor Jim told us Sunday afternoon was a crazy time with many wrecks. He said it was when the experienced vets would try to break class records. These days John offers a similar but still cogent reminder.

Getting one's name into the record book is ample reward for setting a class record.

Best regards,

Bob D'Amore
Nelson
Hall of Fame Member
Posts: 392
Joined: Sat Mar 20, 2004 9:15 am
Location: Reading, PA

Re: Proposed change for 2012 year end points.

Post by Nelson »

I can see both sides of this discussion. There might be another way of rewarding for class records.

We can base the class points on the percentage of the class record.

Example 1:
Class: Experimental 1 Current Record: 60.236
Car #1 Fast Time: 61.546 Points: 97.871
Car #2: Fast time: 62.235 Points: 96.787

Example 2:
Class: Experimental 2 Current Record: 61.524
Car #3 Fast Time: 60.996 (New Record) Points: 100.865
Car #4 Fast Time: 61.123 (Beat Record) Points: 100.656
Car #5 Fast Time: 61.526 Points: 99.996

Example 3:
Class: Experimental 3 No Record
Car #6 Fast Time: 68.574 Points: 100
Car #7 Fast Time: 69.586 Points: 98.545

The points are a percentage of the record: (Record/Time)X100
Where there is no current record (like at Pagoda This past year) first place gets 100 points and all other places get the percentage based on the 1st place time.
georgebowland
Hall of Fame Member
Posts: 75
Joined: Fri Jan 11, 2008 8:37 pm
PHA Permanent Number: 114
Current Racecar: Bowland Boys Racing Shark
Special I

Re: Proposed change for 2012 year end points.

Post by georgebowland »

Nelson,
Now there's a brain teaser. At first look, it seems altogether fair, but I'm sure someone will find problems with it. It might be a good way to award the overall championship points, rather than the current system. Sort of a handicapped/PAX method of looking at the year's accomplishments by each driver in a more accurate way.
George
User avatar
Dave Cutchins
Novice
Posts: 74
Joined: Thu Sep 07, 2006 5:26 pm
PHA Permanent Number: 94
Current Racecar: Formula B (F-1000)
Location: Virginia Beach, VA

Re: Proposed change for 2012 year end points.

Post by Dave Cutchins »

[/b]ote="georgebowland"]Nelson,
Now there's a brain teaser. At first look, it seems altogether fair, but I'm sure someone will find problems with it. It might be a good way to award the overall championship points, rather than the current system. Sort of a handicapped/PAX method of looking at the year's accomplishments by each driver in a more accurate way.
George[/quote]

George,

PAX :?: ????????? - You know how PAX led to the shrinking numbers of modified cars in Solo II. Let's not even entertain theoretical handicapped finishes based on a mathmatical formula. It is almost laughable to think even the best drivers of production based cars could trade seats with you on any given day and be able to run as quick. If I had to bet on which driver would come the closest to the owners best time, it would be the modified driver in the production based vehicle. I have driven your car and know first hand - there is no comparison.
I thouught you had one of these
DSC03577.JPG
I think recognition of a record in whatever form is nice, but awarding points may have unintentional results. Changing the points system and lowering the minimum number of events is worth looking at.
Dave Cutchins
FB #94
User avatar
Mwilson
Novice
Posts: 457
Joined: Sun Feb 06, 2005 1:53 pm
PHA Permanent Number: 116
Current Racecar: Beach Mark 5 (Special 2)
Location: York, Pa.

Re: Proposed change for 2012 year end points.

Post by Mwilson »

I am going to withdraw my original proposal for a points change for 2012. I would like to thank Nelson Matt and Kurt for their efforts in trying to work out a solution to this suggestion but clearly see that it is futile in nature.
I truly hope that everyone has a great Holiday season and thanks again for your input.
Mark Aubele
Novice
Posts: 251
Joined: Wed Jul 26, 2006 12:22 am
Location: Trafford, Pa

Re: Proposed change for 2012 year end points.

Post by Mark Aubele »

Mwilson wrote:I am going to withdraw my original proposal for a points change for 2012. I would like to thank Nelson Matt and Kurt for their efforts in trying to work out a solution to this suggestion but clearly see that it is futile in nature.
I truly hope that everyone has a great Holiday season and thanks again for your input.
I thought it was a good idea Morg. Some of us who compete only have class records to chase (in that situation I imagine the points wouldn't matter much anyway). I always thought there should be some kind of reward for breaking a class record, although there are still some left that are pretty easy to get these days (see the SP records that were set by cars with 100+ horsepower less than current SP machinery).
'97 BMW M3 #53 SMX
User avatar
Mwilson
Novice
Posts: 457
Joined: Sun Feb 06, 2005 1:53 pm
PHA Permanent Number: 116
Current Racecar: Beach Mark 5 (Special 2)
Location: York, Pa.

Re: Proposed change for 2012 year end points.

Post by Mwilson »

Thanks Mark so did I! Trying to get something changed in this organization is like, "trying to shovel shit against the tide." I was warned but didn't listen. NEVER AGAIN! :|
Last edited by Mwilson on Mon Dec 05, 2011 11:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
D. Danko

Re: Proposed change for 2012 year end points.

Post by D. Danko »

You got it now Morg. In my opinion class records should definitely be factored in. The point system does not work well in some classes, but nothings perfect.
jerdeitzel
Novice
Posts: 431
Joined: Wed Feb 07, 2007 6:43 pm
Location: Pittsburgh

Re: Proposed change for 2012 year end points.

Post by jerdeitzel »

So, even if the whole points thing will never be changed. How about just giving record breakers a little extra trophy or something. Its not like its really all that big of an expense to maybe get some standard race medals to hand out to record breakers or something. Heck we can give out broken records if we want. LOL

http://www.trophydepot.com/Auto/C215_1/ ... 5QodTCGRMA

This brings up a point that i havn't heard much about since we changed it. Awards! IMO, it seems as if we have pretty much killed the trophy presentation at the end of the events, with the change to just plaques. Anyone else notice this also? After a few years of using these plaques, i'd be curious to hear people's opinions on it. As much as i don't think we really need trophy's. They did seem to draw more poeple to stick around for them.
#88 SM
Mitsubishi evo 8
mckee

Re: Proposed change for 2012 year end points.

Post by mckee »

Morg,
Just because some of us offered reasons against your proposal in no way suggests that it lacks merit. Every question has two sides and this forum has a responsibility to air both sides. We certainly take advantage of it.

When the smoke clears one side will appeal more than the other. Why not wait until you have a clearer picture of who supports your proposal after all the arguments have been made? You may be surprised.

Remember Robert's Rules of Order (not mine). Let's listen to the discussion, then all those in favor say 'aye', etc., etc.

Bob D'Amore

P.S. How about points based on how far off you get into the woods -- double points for upside down?
User avatar
Mwilson
Novice
Posts: 457
Joined: Sun Feb 06, 2005 1:53 pm
PHA Permanent Number: 116
Current Racecar: Beach Mark 5 (Special 2)
Location: York, Pa.

Re: Proposed change for 2012 year end points.

Post by Mwilson »

Bob, I treasure your opinions more than most. There is more to the picture than appears on this forum. I just no longer have the desire or the fortitude to push ahead. I just want to pay, go, compete, and come home! My decision to drop this issue was not because of any opinions offered on this forum, in fact I appreciated the input. It is a combination of things that led me to just say I'm done getting involved in all the "freakin" politics of the sport. I will let that up to the many politicians in our organization. Thanks again for your thoughts but I AM DEFINITELY DONE WITH THIS AND ANY OTHER ISSUES!!!!!!!!!!!!!! If you see me make any other posts regarding any change or suggestions would you please give me a "swift kick in the ass" the next time you see me. :lol: Happy Holidays
Last edited by Mwilson on Wed Dec 07, 2011 7:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
TKnorr
Hall of Fame Member
Posts: 264
Joined: Thu Mar 25, 2004 10:04 am

Re: Proposed change for 2012 year end points.

Post by TKnorr »

On this topic, the following statements were made:
“looking for some feedback”
“compromise”
“forum has a responsibility to air both sides”
Feedback was provided and different views were put forth.
A majority had a positive take on the issue. The forum is a good venue
to discuss issues.

Personally, the idea certainly is worth discussion at our next PHA
meeting where decisions are made by the membership (not the forum).
I don't think we want to change the number of drops (currently one)
because it would have an adverse effect on event entries.

I have no idea where the political aspect came from. Over time, changes
have occurred which have improved our events, saved time and reduced
the expenditures to run our events. These changes have occurred following
parliamentary procedures with the members of PHA.
If anyone is not pleased with the current slate of nominees for office,
by all means, come to the February meeting and nominate the region
representative of yoour choosing.

Regarding event plates/year-end plaques... this was passed by the PHA
membership primarily to reduce event expenses. One hillclimb in PHA
lost money in 2011. That event would have lost an additional $1000
if trophies were provided!!!

Tom Knorr, PHA President
Tom Knorr
User avatar
Mwilson
Novice
Posts: 457
Joined: Sun Feb 06, 2005 1:53 pm
PHA Permanent Number: 116
Current Racecar: Beach Mark 5 (Special 2)
Location: York, Pa.

Re: Proposed change for 2012 year end points.

Post by Mwilson »

Tom, you are 100% correct. I let one person's comments/statements outside the forum cloud my thoughts. In retrospect I should have said, "The politics of one individual." As they say," I did not put brain in gear before opening mouth." Diplomacy is not one of my better traits. Come to think of it I can't think of any good ones at all. :roll: Happy Holidays

P.S. Congratulations on your second place finish at the "TURKEY BOWL" this year.
Post Reply