verbal abuse

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Mary Anne Fieux
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Re: verbal abuse

Post by Mary Anne Fieux »

I write this from the perspective of a driver, corner worker, and one of the confused to add a personal story about Jefferson, and my 2 cents. Or is it 1 cent due to the economy, inflation, deflation, hot air, etc.?

Specifically I am referring to red flags at hillclimbs versus track events.

Only once have I had the opportunity to drive at the Jefferson Circuit and it was as a co-driver in Dan Rhyne’s MR2. Things were going well that weekend, especially driving something faster than a SAAB 2-stroker. However, I spun out at the corner which parallels the big track (I do not know the corner number).

It was a big spin, dust, spinning, more spinning, couldn’t see where I was (neither could Rich Rock, he was behind me and said he didn’t know where the MR2 was), and all of that. When momentum stopped, as I knew it would, I had 2 feet in and continued onward. Slowly at first to make sure there was no damage to the car. The first corner worker hit me with a red flag; I approached the corner worker and was waived on. The second corner, same thing happened. I went 1 ½ times around the track until a corner work told me to go to pit in.

At pit in I was greeted by smiling (not) Dan Lipperini, who, shall I say, had a Fieux choice words for me. :shock: All were warranted. Most important were Dan’s questions to me, “Weren’t you at the driver’s meeting? (YES, but obviously not listening and I was thinking the rules were all the same as for a hillclimb.) Don’t you know what a red flag means? (I THOUGHT I DID. I told him it meant to approach the corner worker and be advised what to do, LIKE A HILLCLIMB. WRONG!) He then advised me I was wrong and to “go over there and cool down”. The best thing was the standing ovation I got from the drivers for the spin. After a chew down from Lipperini, that was good, hell, more than good, it felt great! Lol!

Bottom line. Regardless of what this thread is supposed to be about, the red flag was brought up during these discussions. I can only suggest that it is strongly stressed at Jefferson driver’s meetings the difference between a red flag at a hillclimb versus a flat track such as Jefferson. I obviously missed hearing that important bit of information at the driver’s meeting and was at fault :oops: for not going to pit in after the first red flag.

Signed off: A non-Grand Poobah, with no race car of her own to name, or to pat its ass. Since I do not pat women’s asses, I must decline on patting Gracie’s British bum!
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Re: verbal abuse

Post by Matt Rowe »

Mary Anne, I appreciate the story but I am a little confused as why anyone should think the red flag means anything different at a hill or flat track. My expectation as an official is the same no matter what the event. Come to a controlled stop along the edge of the track and then follow the directions of the corner worker. It sounds like the biggest problem with your own story is the corner workers weren't clear in their communication to you as I suspect they wanted to get you to pit and you perceived it as waving you to continue on. Really they should have put the red flags away otherwise a truly literal driver would have been stopping at every station.

I will try to ensure whomever leads next years meeting at Jefferson is clear but I really don't want people to have to try and remember different red flag meanings whether they are at a Jefferson, a hill, a club race or even a Solo. Throughout SCCA the same meaning applies, get stopped safely and then listen to the worker.
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Re: verbal abuse

Post by mrevilracing »

Mwilson wrote:Well I think I probably received more verbal abuse this season than anyone else in the PHA. It started at Jefferson in the Spring when I forgot to put my gloves on and caused the course to be red flagged. Every time I went to the start line everyone held up both hands. Then to top that I forgot to turn on my water pump causing the nick name of "OLD SMOKEY." Then at Weatherly when Bowland found out I went over the jump full throttle and almost crashed he yelled at me saying, "I DON"T WANT TO TALK TO YOU ANYMORE." At Duryea Kurt said I was a "REAL PAIN IN THE ASS", in regards to the terrible mood I was in. At Polish Mtn. Various drivers called me, "NO RUN WILSON." for not staying around on Sunday. And at Fall Jefferson one driver who I will not mention chewed me out for having all Budweiser instead of Yingling Lager. There were a few comments also made that at least with the "Bandit" not having reverse I should head up the Hill in the right direction. I also think that one of the officials stated to me,"YOU COULD PROBABLY TAKE THOSE HUGE WINGS OFF THE CAR BECAUSE WITH YOUR WEIGHT YOU HAVE ALL THE DOWN FORCE YOU WILL EVER NEED."

AND GUESS WHAT? THEY WERE ALL RIGHT!
1. I will never forget my gloves again.
2. I also will never forget to turn on the Water Pump again.
3. I will not go over the jump Full Throttle, at least not for a while.
4. I will try very hard to not be a "pain in the ass" and to be more positive when things go wrong.
5. I will give Kurt my car keys and try to stay for the whole event.
6. I will have Yingling Lager from now on.
7. I will always be heading up hill from now on.
8. I am trying to loose some weight so I do not have so much down force.

So as you can see in my case the VERBAL ABUSE was indeed a good thing, and I thank all of you from the bottom of my heart for the constructive abuse. Keep up the good work!
Good god, Morg!!! I came home from work and was tired. Expecting to relax and slowly just do nothing but veg. Well, so much for me being tired now!!! I read this out loud while Nancy is cooking dinner and we were both rolling, laughing like mad. Hahahahahahaha!!! I'm not tired anymore. That was hillarious! Thanks for waking me up.
RIP Joe, my friend.

Must go faster!!!!
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Re: verbal abuse

Post by jerdeitzel »

Of the very few things i though i should talk about at the drivers meeting was red flags! I also mentioned how i was very serious about not missing them!

I only recall 1 person missing a flag and they were talked too. (they are very experienced and i'm sure he understood the serious nature of it. People make mistakes!). There was one other instance. "not exactly the right procedure and a bit of driver and flagger error"

I tried to verbally abuse everyone into not spinning so much. Did it work? NOT AT ALL! Do i care from a safety standpoint, not really. Do i care from a organizers perspective, Yes. On that track every red flags causes alot of delays. Shit happens tho and thats the way it is.

I told everyone to come talk to me if they had a problem. If someone did have a problem then they should be an adult and come talk to us. We are by no means very mean people.
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Re: verbal abuse

Post by TKnorr »

As I have repeatedly said in the past, issues involving individuals should be communicated in a private manner, not on the forum.

Relating to the training of new drivers (curriculum and instruction), the most effective approach is through actual experience.
Many involved in education, refer to teachers “delivering” the curriculum or “covering” the curriculum. As I have told many “hot shot” educators, we “deliver” babies and “cover” dead bodies, but neither have anything to do with effective instruction. The emphasis is not on the teacher but on the student. Most people learn most effectively through direct experiences. I call it “Inquiry”, others call it “Hands-On, Minds-On”.
How do these proven strategies relate to driver instruction? In a classroom, where the teacher instructs the students (drivers), the inexperienced student will usually have difficulty identifying with concepts and techniques and have little interaction with the instructor.. Most effective instruction occurs when a person has an opportunity to have “hands-on” experiences followed by a dynamic interchange of ideas with the instructor.
I think our mentoring program follows this pedagogy.
Our chief driving instructor provides a basic overview of each hill including hazards to watch out for. The key part of this brief instruction is the emphasis on driving attitude. The importance of learning the course, slowly and methodically lowering your run times is a major objective. As mentioned above, driver attitude and maturity are more important than instruction in determining how they approach any hillclimb and the success they achieve over time. After each event, the novice driver is debriefed by the chief driving instructor… where do you need to improve; did you demonstrate a sensible approach to this hillclimb leading to a satisfactory assessment. Unsatisfactory assessments have been and will continue be provided for those inexperienced. overly aggressive drivers.
All experienced drivers can help make this process even more effective. Offer your knowledge to novice drivers to help make their initial experiences a positive one.
If you look at the data, our novice program has been successful; most novices have developed into safe and competitive drivers.

Tom Knorr, PHA President
Tom Knorr
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Re: verbal abuse

Post by Mary Anne Fieux »

Matt,
Matt Rowe wrote:Mary Anne, I appreciate the story but I am a little confused as why anyone should think the red flag means anything different at a hill or flat track.
I tried not to be confusing, but “it is what was”, as they say.

After the spin, I came to a controlled stop each time I was approached by a corner worker, and each time the corner worker did the same as the ones that preceded them. The corner workers just waved me on with hand gestures to keep going, I guess they might have thought I knew to go to pit in. Not one advised me when I was stopped to: "Go to pit in." They just waved me on.

There were more than just the 2 corners who waved me on when I came to the controlled stop, awaiting direction. I actually was confused, like, “What do they want me to do, why do I keep getting the red flag at each station and no direction?” Remember I went around the track 1 ½ times with red flags at every corner before a worker advised me what to do.

The question to me was: Is there is a difference at a hillclimb versus a TT track when a driver is red flagged? Remember, I had only have driven Jefferson that one time, and relevant to my red flag experience and Lipperini’s dissertation upon arriving to pit in, I was advised red flag means go to pit in at Jefferson. So the question was, is this not the case? According to what you wrote, there is no difference. Question answered.

All I know is, I was wrong, per the driver’s meeting, Lipperini told me to go in when you are red flagged at Jefferson, and I didn’t do that. So the question was, at Jefferson and other TT tracks, regardless of whether a corner worker directly addresses you, do you go to pit in when you are red flagged???? You answered that question.

SIGNED OFF: Non-Grand Poobah who believes all non-Grand Poobahs should speak up in order to learn, always loving the Yeager Poobah, and a woman who will not pat the asses of female cars, British or not. Male car bums only! 8)
Last edited by Mary Anne Fieux on Tue Sep 13, 2011 11:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: verbal abuse

Post by dspgti »

TKnorr wrote:As I have repeatedly said in the past, issues involving individuals should be communicated in a private manner, not on the forum.

Relating to the training of new drivers (curriculum and instruction), the most effective approach is through actual experience.
Many involved in education, refer to teachers “delivering” the curriculum or “covering” the curriculum. As I have told many “hot shot” educators, we “deliver” babies and “cover” dead bodies, but neither have anything to do with effective instruction. The emphasis is not on the teacher but on the student. Most people learn most effectively through direct experiences. I call it “Inquiry”, others call it “Hands-On, Minds-On”.
How do these proven strategies relate to driver instruction? In a classroom, where the teacher instructs the students (drivers), the inexperienced student will usually have difficulty identifying with concepts and techniques and have little interaction with the instructor.. Most effective instruction occurs when a person has an opportunity to have “hands-on” experiences followed by a dynamic interchange of ideas with the instructor.
I think our mentoring program follows this pedagogy.
Our chief driving instructor provides a basic overview of each hill including hazards to watch out for. The key part of this brief instruction is the emphasis on driving attitude. The importance of learning the course, slowly and methodically lowering your run times is a major objective. As mentioned above, driver attitude and maturity are more important than instruction in determining how they approach any hillclimb and the success they achieve over time. After each event, the novice driver is debriefed by the chief driving instructor… where do you need to improve; did you demonstrate a sensible approach to this hillclimb leading to a satisfactory assessment. Unsatisfactory assessments have been and will continue be provided for those inexperienced. overly aggressive drivers.
All experienced drivers can help make this process even more effective. Offer your knowledge to novice drivers to help make their initial experiences a positive one.
If you look at the data, our novice program has been successful; most novices have developed into safe and competitive drivers.

Tom Knorr, PHA President
"Pedagogy" Tom? I had to look that one up in Websters.

Well, I guess I haven't learned my lesson and continue to air dirty laundry or more accurately make accusations on the public forum instead of communicating in a private manner. When will I ever learn? No reflection on you, Tom. I have been a bad student all my life.

I failed to seperate the method and effectiveness of TT instruction and how any deviations are addressed. It's not that a student (or any driver for that matter) wasn't in the wrong, it's how the driver was addressed to point out their errors and instructed to make improvements.

Dave Y
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Re: verbal abuse

Post by Mary Anne Fieux »

TKnorr wrote:maturity
TKnorr wrote:sensible
TKnorr wrote:overly aggressive drivers
Huh? This applies to us? :shock:
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Re: verbal abuse

Post by gdh57 »

mrevilracing wrote:Sue, I will be sure to pat Gracie on the ass next time I see her.
Just be sure you get the right Gracie. Or we may need another thread on verbal abuse :lol:

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Re: verbal abuse

Post by FV95 »

I appreciate the commentary on novices qualifying for a license. I believe it is really too easy to show up and run three events. On the other hand, I do issue a fair number of unsat ratings for what I deem driver error. But, to step it up a bit may required a classroom session or two before the drivers' first event. Not sure how to pull that off.
I often thought that the novices should also attend the general drivers's meeting on Saturday (as well as Sunday)instead of running to get suited up for the orientation run. That second meeting would re-emphasize procedural matters and perhaps cover something I may have missed. It is rare that the course is ready for the touring runs immediately after the novice meeting anyway...often we must wait for corner crews to be in place...why not take that time and drill procedure in the novices just a little more? Yes, once in a while it will create additional delay, but it may be worth it.
Any ideas on improving the novice procedures, at least my part of it, please feel free to send constructive criticism and recommendations to: jjpfoto@earthlink.net.
Yes, I have attended SCCA driving school and hold a club racing license.
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Re: verbal abuse

Post by Matt Rowe »

John the Novices used to attend both meetings but we found that frequently meant they were late getting ready to run the novice run. Also it caused the regular driver's meeting to be even more drawn out as people wanted to re-emphasize every detail from the novice meeting at the regular meeting which then resulted in the regulars "tuning out" and ignoring everything said. If you are things you think that really need to be emphasized I would suggest we do that after they come back down from your orientation or add a mandatory meeting on Friday evening to give them even more time to reflect on everything we throw at them.
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Re: verbal abuse

Post by dspgti »

Friday night meeting is an outstanding idea for pure novices, getting log books etc. We already require them to be there to get their cars teched. Why not start the instructional side of it. Every hill that we run has a number of videos made by drivers that could be shown for instruction (if we can find one showing at least a good line if not the correct one :lol: ). Perhaps we could start a library of videos made specifically for instruction, not just in car race video.

These are some of the ideas BMR will be discussing to speed up Duryea.

Note: I will return to the subject of this thread after I get more info.

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Re: verbal abuse

Post by FV95 »

A number of folks have commented that the "right line" should be taught. Well, I would rather show a video of some of the destroyed cars from over zealous beginners. I do not believe my position is to teach how to go faster, rather it is how to work up to going fast in the safest possible manner.
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Re: verbal abuse

Post by Matt Rowe »

Back when I started Novice orientation was covered by Jim Cosner. Jim's approach was always that wouldn't tell you how to drive you car, he could only tell you the things to be aware of or avoid along the way. Anyone who has been at racing for any amount of time knows there really isn't one "right" line. It very much depends on the car, the driver and the conditions of the day. If someone of Jim's experience didn't feel he was able to look at someone and their car and tell them the line I wouldn't want to meet the instructor foolish enough to think they can do better than the following advice I learned from Jim.

Once the green light is on, the road is mine from ditch to ditch
You can't make a right turn from the right side of the road
If you're not sure of the line, stay on the yellow line

John, I think you are doing a good job, but if someone else would like to help John out and provide another perspective that would be great too.
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Re: verbal abuse

Post by mrevilracing »

Dave, love ya buddy but I have to disagree in a huge way here. First, John's doing a great job with novices and I can't and won't make any comments to the contrary 'cause I can't think of any!

Anyway, I fail to see any reason what so ever to require additional training or instruction. ANYTHING can and will happen to any car or any driver at any moment on any course. Without any real numbers to back it up( I am sure someone has it) I will bet that the veterans cause more trouble than the novices do.
Should we go off on a tangent and say that if you do a drastic change to your car or even buy a new car, YOU are now a novice? What if I decide to have Mike Robinson co-drive my car? He isn't a mustang driver. Our cars are totally different. Is he now a novice? What if Merlin decides to co-drive with Donnie? Do we consider him a novice in that car?!

I will totally disagree with any statements regarding additional novice training what so ever, PERIOD. No Friday BS. No classroom time. No changes. Until novices make up 75% of the issues on the hill, I will be the first to say NO for changes.
RIP Joe, my friend.

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Re: verbal abuse

Post by miniacmike »

dspgti wrote:Friday night meeting is an outstanding idea for pure novices, getting log books etc. We already require them to be there to get their cars teched. Why not start the instructional side of it. Every hill that we run has a number of videos made by drivers that could be shown for instruction (if we can find one showing at least a good line if not the correct one :lol: ). Perhaps we could start a library of videos made specifically for instruction, not just in car race video.

These are some of the ideas BMR will be discussing to speed up Duryea.

Note: I will return to the subject of this thread after I get more info.

Dave Y
What the @#$%. The last thing I wan't some impressionable novice to see is a line that may or may not work for his car or driving style. Put 10 seasoned drivers on a course walk and your going to get 10 different lines. This makes me want to throw my computer away!

John and Matt.... keep up the good work. I had the honor of novice instruction from both Cosner and John and feel they did a great job showing the novices the keys to safe hillclimbing.

Dave... maybe you could show up at the hills and offer a voluntary class :lol:
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Re: verbal abuse

Post by Mark Aubele »

I don't think showing novices lines is a good idea either. You want them to take it easy on one hand then you want to put in their head "the fastest line"? Kind of seems a bit counter-intuitive to me. Let them take a few runs on a hot course, get comfortable, then we as competitors can handle the rest. We all discuss this between runs, no need to spend precious time attempting to "teach fast". I believe you cannot teach someone to be fast.
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Re: verbal abuse

Post by gdh57 »

dspgti wrote:Note: I will return to the subject of this thread after I get more info.
Not to be snarky or anything, but this is always a good idea. It is an even better idea to do this before posting in the first place.

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Re: verbal abuse

Post by dspgti »

gdh57 wrote:
dspgti wrote:Note: I will return to the subject of this thread after I get more info.
Not to be snarky or anything, but this is always a good idea. It is an even better idea to do this before posting in the first place.

Grace
I admit I was wrong, Grace, to jump to conclusions. The only thing I can say is that I will see it out till the end. I just need more time to get other feed back. I do have other information but the last thing I need to do is broadcast it without going thru proper channels and I will let the appropriate officials handle it as they see fit. But, I will post an appology here if I'm wrong about my concerns.

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Re: verbal abuse

Post by dspgti »

I started this thread on a very negative note. Let me attempt to turn things around.

First, I’d like to apologize for jumping to conclusions without knowing the real facts. Naming the thread “Verbal Abuse” was an overstatement. While I do feel that things could have been handled differently, there were extenuating circumstances that led to the confrontation that created my concerns. What I failed to take into consideration was the commendable efforts by the Steel Cities Region and the outstanding job they did to put on this event. In the final analysis, I am guilty of the same accusations that I was making.

Most of my opinions on this matter have been covered in a letter to SCR through Jeremy, Tom Knorr, Rich Rock, John Pitman and Matt Rowe. If they would like to address or dismiss my opinions, so be it.

At this point I can only hope that we can all learn by this experience and become a more user friendly organization in the future. I for one will try to take Tom Knorr’s advice (repeated for the second time) and try to not vent my opinions on a public forum and handle things on a little more private nature.


Dave Y
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