2019 Spring Jefferson Poll 2

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2019 Spring Jefferson Poll 2

I have expressed an opinion & I'm not coming if I don't get my opinion. Pleases comment below.
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2019 Spring Jefferson Poll 2

Postby Nelson » Tue Mar 05, 2019 10:17 am

2019 Spring Jefferson Poll 2
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Re: 2019 Spring Jefferson Poll 2

Postby Mark Aubele » Tue Mar 05, 2019 5:16 pm

I don't find it necessary to run Jefferson the way Shenandoah was ran. The trackcross style format we ran there in the fall was a necessary evil, with Jefferson IMO it isn't needed for drivers to get a sufficient amount of runs.
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Re: 2019 Spring Jefferson Poll 2

Postby georgebowland » Wed Mar 06, 2019 9:22 am

It's called the PHA for a reason. One by one we race up hills without warm tires. Seems to me that a trackcross is more appropriate for our organization. There are many track events available for those that want multiple laps.
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Re: 2019 Spring Jefferson Poll 2

Postby hufflepuff » Sat Mar 23, 2019 10:25 am

i have run both trackcross and flying lap styles with other orgs, but haven't run with PHA. That said, i'd be in favor of whichever option is expected to result in better event flow and/or more timed runs.
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Re: 2019 Spring Jefferson Poll 2

Postby hufflepuff » Sat Mar 23, 2019 10:26 am

another thought: it may increase the challenge to run clockwise for points one day and counter clockwise for points the next.
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Re: 2019 Spring Jefferson Poll 2

Postby Fritzler » Sat Mar 23, 2019 3:41 pm

I don't support doing different directions on different days. I don't think that will give more runs /track time and is not really in keeping with how we run hills. Typically, Group 1 will get more runs on Saturday than Group 2 (say, 3 vs 2). So, we start the day on Sunday with Group 2 going first and by the end of the day Sunday everyone has had an equal number of runs available. If we're doing points both days, we really can't have half the people getting more runs Saturday so we'll have to stop early on Saturday so that everyone gets the same number of runs for day 1.
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Re: 2019 Spring Jefferson Poll 2

Postby Rich Rock » Sun Mar 24, 2019 7:33 pm

We tried going different directions many years ago, but because we had to stop early on Saturday, had to have a novice orientation on Sunday morning, some people could not run, or had to leave early on Sunday, it wasn't popular.

Also, many felt they were just getting into the groove by the end of Saturday and were looking forward to a perfect lap on Sunday. Just about everyone ended up with less track time for the weekend. It wasn't popular, that's why we haven't done it since.

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Re: 2019 Spring Jefferson Poll 2

Postby Josh R. » Wed Apr 03, 2019 4:36 pm

georgebowland wrote:It's called the PHA for a reason. One by one we race up hills without warm tires. Seems to me that a trackcross is more appropriate for our organization. There are many track events available for those that want multiple laps.
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Okay. So why do track events at all? Simply put, I just don't think there's enough value in doing PHA trackcross/tracksprint events at Summit Point...in my opinion. Shenandoah? Okay, I get it but at least Shenandoah is awesome. But Jefferson too? Meh. Summit Point does their own trackcross events on Jefferson and Shenandoah for $99. WDCR has TT events on all three circuits for less than $300 with literally HUNDREDS of minutes on track. I was at Shenandoah on Sunday and was on track for 100 minutes and even skipped the last session of the day. Yes, I do want to see my hillclimb friends and gun for the records but personally I'm still weighing that vs. $$$/time on track.
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Re: 2019 Spring Jefferson Poll 2

Postby Rich Rock » Sat Apr 06, 2019 4:05 pm

We do the Summit Point events because we don't have anything else available those two weekends and year after year enough people show up and the events don't lose money. Many drivers like Spring Jefferson because they think of it as a sort of test&tune in preparation for the Hillclimb season. We've been going to Summit Point for a little more than 20 years. Many people like it for different reasons, but not everybody goes, so those events usually have the lowest number of entries in any PHA season.

I think if we could have a Hillclimb on either or both of our two traditional Summit Point weekends people would prefer that, but I'm not sure? I explored the possibility of having a hillclimb Memorial Day or Labor Day weekend in 2019, but none of the organizers wanted to put on what would have been, for them, a second or third hillclimb. Can't blame 'em, it's a whole lottta work to put on a hillclimb. Polish Mountain did say that it was something they MIGHT consider for 2020, but they want to see how things go this year before deciding. Bottom line is they don't want to lose money on two events. So, a good turnout for Polish Mountain this year is important.

As for the $99 Trackcross events, the ones at Shenandoah are quite different from ours. They are one-day events most of which happen during winter months. They've been calling it the "Refrigerator Bowl". But, as Josh points out, they have a few scheduled for Spring-Summer this year. Looking at their website I see the course maps for their Shenandoah events and it seems they use less than half of the course and maybe half of the long straights. Low speed compared to ours. Haven't seen a map of how they run Jefferson so I can't comment. Possibly the more important difference to some is that these are not SCCA events, which means participants don't get the kind of insurance coverage we do.

Trevor (Chief Steward & Control) and I (Event Chairman) have discussed the upcoming Jefferson event at length. We prefer the TrackSprint format not only because it's much easier for everyone, but also because it keeps things moving. Much less time waiting in line, which is especially nice for the Formula car and Sports Racer drivers. It's a more efficient use of time because we can have two run groups, nobody has to worry about pods, we don't need someone to stage cars on the grid , drivers can get in line whenever they want, and cars get released just like at a hillclimb. Two-driver cars benefit by the co-drivers not having to deal with a too-hot car. Think of it as a "Horizontal Hillclimb".

The laps format is the way we've been doing it for a long time. It's always been difficult, but last year it went pretty well. The biggest reason for that was Dave Merritt. Dave was able to do what nobody else has: Work all day both days making sure that properly arranged 3-car pods were formed before they got to the staging area. Maybe not everyone liked his style, but the important thing is the job got done, and the event flowed better because of it. Drivers behaving on course also helped ;-)

Some drivers have no trouble forming a pod without any help, but that's not everyone. And, stuff happens that can lead to a need to rearrange the grid. Maybe a car needs a repair and can't get to the grid on time. Maybe the car gets to grid and then won't start. Maybe it rains a little and some people don't want to go out. Maybe someone is only running one day, etc. etc. That's why we need at least one grid marshal ("Podmaster") at all times.

Since Dave won't be there this year, we need one or more people to take his place, all day both days. Unless we get that, we'll be having a TrackSprint/Horizontal Hillclimb. Who wants to volunteer? Need to know soon, so that I can get the paperwork straight with National.

Thanks,

Rich
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Re: 2019 Spring Jefferson Poll 2

Postby georgebowland » Mon Apr 08, 2019 10:27 pm

A lot of good information here. I believe we should run it as a horizontal hillclimb and see how the group rates it. Saves finding someone to work like Dave did last year (and we all saw how whipped he was by the end of the weekend). We need to make our workers jobs as easy as possible and this change would be a good start. It also reduces Nelson's work load as the timing system is much more simple to operate with the separation of the start and finish lines.
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Re: 2019 Spring Jefferson Poll 2

Postby Nelson » Tue Apr 09, 2019 8:31 am

Some of the discussion has been about the amount of runs for both multiple laps vs single lap. Here are the stats for both events.
Spring & Fall Jefferson Long Course
Year # Runs Offered Avg # of Runs # Entries

2014F 10 8.5 68
2015S 10 8.3 78
2015F 15 10.9 68
2016S 10 7.2 81
2017S 12 6.6 72
2018S 14 8.2 75
Average 11.8 8.3 73.7

Shenandoah
Multi Laps
Year # Runs Offered Avg # of Runs # Entries
2016 8 7 77
2017 12 7.2 80
Average 10 7.1 78.5
Single Lap

2018 12 7.9 88

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Re: 2019 Spring Jefferson Poll 2

Postby hufflepuff » Thu Apr 11, 2019 7:11 pm

i like the idea of the tracksprint / horizontal hillclimb. no need for me to change from street to track pads! plus it's a little more like the hillclimb style of running on cold tires.

while i'd be okay exchanging one of the summit point events for a hillclimb, the jefferson event will make for a nice opportunity for me to get the car tech'd for the first time, shake the car down, and get familiar with the club and the people. i'd be even more happy to see more hillclimb events on the calendar... but i know nothing of the magnitude of work and dedication it takes to execute one, so i can understand why the schedule is limited.

what i did notice is that the hillclimbs are packed pretty closely to each other, and largely during the heat of summer... i would assume this is based on historical reasons, but spreading out the actual hill climbs more evenly across the calendar (or better yet, adding an event or two earlier or later than this year's schedule) could allow us to enjoy the cooler spring or fall weather.
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Re: 2019 Spring Jefferson Poll 2

Postby Rich Rock » Fri Apr 19, 2019 7:26 am

Because we now have volunteers to work grid, the plan is to run it the way we have been. Pods doing laps, groups based on lap times. THANK YOU, volunteers!

Registration should open in a couple weeks. Please register early.

Thanks!

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Re: 2019 Spring Jefferson Poll 2

Postby ktaggart » Tue May 07, 2019 8:56 am

Has the decision been made about which direction we will be running?
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Re: 2019 Spring Jefferson Poll 2

Postby Rich Rock » Tue May 07, 2019 5:45 pm

CCW, same as we have been.


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